Romford

[Lechmere]

Yes - but trouble is you can then get bogged down in what are ultimately unimportant details about lodging houses or how long it takes to walk from Romford to Spitalfields.

[miss marple]

Romford or not Hutchinson lied about the location which throws into question his other statement.
Walking up Whitechapel rd into Commercial st yes thats fine, seeing Mary at Thrawl St yes that fits in, BUT seeing Mary with a man at Thrawl St from the light of a pub lamp The Queens Head Two streets away in Fashion street impossible!
SO he needed a light source to give his description some veritas. Maybe he mentioned Ten Bells first then realised it would not go so it was crossed out and he mentioned The Queens Head, but it is rubbish like his statement.
Look at the 1894 map if you cant go there.
Miss Marple

[Lechmere]

Doesn't he say he had a good look when they passed him while he was outside the Queens Head which is on the way from Thrawl Street to Miller's Court?

I wouldn't get too hung up about a witness misnaming a street or pub. There were loads of streets and pubs in very close proximity and my guess is a lot of people woiuld only know the names of the main roads or the side turnings where they knew someone. I forget the names of some side roads close to where I live and even pub names.

[kangacaught]

Isn't the problem with Hutch as jtr that if he conjured up the music hall villain description because he feared he'd been clocked why didn't he just leave mjk for another time and find another victim for the night?

[Lechmere]

That's one of the problems, but I daren't go through the others.

[Rubyretro]

[

he feared he'd been clocked why didn't he just leave mjk for another time and find another victim for the night?

[/QUOTE]

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush ?

If Hutchinson knew that Mary was alone, unlikely to go out again because of the hour and the rain, and he knew that he could use the broken window to reach in and open the door, he might have been unwilling to let the the opportunity pass. I would think that he would build up a lot of excited anticipation whilst waiting. Besides which, if he were cold, tired and damp, then the prospect of getting into the room might be a big draw. Then there is the thing that, if he was getting off on his notority in the press, he might have been enjoying the prospect of putting the Lord Mayor's Show in the shade.

As to Mrs Lewis: When she passed he had yet to do anything wrong, and he had nothing to fear from her. I think that she would have given him a wide berth and not looked at him as she drew closer -she probably didn't seem much of a threat in the heat of the moment.

However, alarm set in when she turned up at the inquest with the damning description 'looking towards the court as if waiting for someone to come out'
and this linked to the murder. This proved that she had paid attention to him afterall, and so she might recognise him if she saw him again.

[miss marple]

To go back to this route of Huchinson's, after seeing Mary and Astrakhan Man at Thrawl St but not by the light of the Queens Head which was further up in Fashion St . He follows them up Commercial St passed Thrawl St on the right, passed Flower and Dean on the right, up to Fashion St on the right[ There is the pub and the gaslight] THEY HAVE TO CROSS THE ROAD, pass Whites Row to get to Dorset St.
So Well dressed Astrakhan man escorting Mary is followed by a suspicious man, for about ten fifteen minutes who could be a out to demand money with menaces or murder him, or be Mary's Pimp but Astrakan Man is sublimely un awhere of the danger he is in, or that with Hutchison's XRAY eyes he can see through Astrakhan man.s heavy coat to the gold watch inside.
Pardon me, but load of old bull comes to mind
The latest evidence on liars is that they have their story off pat and tend to tell a story in chronological order, unlike truth tellers, who remember events in an unstructured way, but the more you press a liar on their story and get them to repeat it a lot then they get confused if the order starts to unravel. Hutchison made one mistake with the pub, it is possible had he been grilled a bit more his story might have unravelled. but he just made a statement, he was not there as a suspect, but a witness.
Lachmere The devil is in the detail.
Miss Marple

[Rubyretro]

The latest evidence on liars is that they have their story off pat and tend to tell a story in chronological order, unlike truth tellers, who remember events in an unstructured way

This is true. If you get the person to repeat the story backwards, then the
liars get very confused.

[Fisherman]

Ruby:

"If you get the person to repeat the story backwards, then the
liars get very confused."

Thatīs interesting! I hear all sorts of stories surrounding Hutchinson, and many of them seem to imply that the ones who tell them have gotten things backwards.
Does this mean that they are telling the truth?

Just asking

Miss Marple:

"with Hutchison's XRAY eyes he can see through Astrakhan man.s heavy coat to the gold watch inside"

Would it not be more feasible to accept that Hutchinson could see the gold chain since Astrakhan man wore his coat unbuttoned? If such a simple explanation could well have lain behind the observation, then why must we work from the assumption/accusation that Hutchinson instead lied about it? And why did not Abberline call him a liar when this, ehrm ... very obvious fallacy surfaced during the interrogation?

Once more, Iīm just asking.

The best,
Fisherman

[miss marple]

Fisherman,
I have sold many vintage men's overcoats. Heavy wool men's coats even if unbuttoned, tend to hang together, the weight keeping then fairly closed. I have just put one on , standing still and unbuttoned you cannot see under the coat, maybe a glimpse of the jacket, but Hutchison saw not just jacket, but horseshoe pin, goldchain and also waistcoat! Thats impossible.plus astrakhan collar would have obscured the tie. Following them in the dark, he only saw these details under the pub light,then Hutchinson says Man produces a red handerchief, whernde from? His coat pocket? Plus he was carrying a parcel.
There is tooo much detail, liars over elaborate.

Miss Marple

Ps I have a couple of horseshoe pins, they were a fairly common design for men's cravats and ties.
I think Abbleline and others were so desperate for any leads that when a detailed witness statement turned up like Huchison's they took it at face value. It also fitted the popular perception of the toff.

[Rubyretro]

[QUOTE=miss marple;185786]Fisherman,

I have sold many vintage men's overcoats. Heavy wool men's coats even if unbuttoned, tend to hang together, the weight keeping then fairly closed.

I also have had a business selling vintage clothing, and totally agree with you,
Miss Marple.

[Marlowe]

Hello,

While I'm willing to accept that any one of Hutchinson's three

(signatures/personalities) may have been that of Lucifer, there is a part of

his statement that suggests to me that he may have been telling the

truth, at least in part.


A few nights ago, my (Jewish) mother-in-law was telling me about her

childhood and some of the things that her mother used to do. She really got

my attention when she said that if it was raining, or if rain was expected,

her mother would protect whatever she had by wrapping it in oilcloth!!! I

asked her to give me an example of something her mother might protect from

the rain by using oilcloth and she said, a book, or anything she didn't want

to get wet.


So I then asked her if this 'wrapping-things-in-oilcloth' was a

particularly 'Jewish' thing to do, or did everybody do it -- and she said, "oh

yes, it was definitely a 'Jewish thing' to do. We don't believe in waste, you

know." LOL

So, a small defense of Hutchinson from my Jewish mother-in-law!

Marlowe

[Wickerman]

Fisherman,
I have sold many vintage men's overcoats. Heavy wool men's coats even if unbuttoned, tend to hang together, the weight keeping then fairly closed. I have just put one on , standing still and unbuttoned you cannot see under the coat, maybe a glimpse of the jacket, but Hutchison saw not just jacket, but horseshoe pin, goldchain and also waistcoat! Thats impossible...

What appears impossible is your perception of events.
As any man reaches out his "right hand around her shoulders", an unbuttoned coat will open to some degree.
Likewise, later when he reached into a pocket to pull out the red handkerchief, this could have been an inside pocket, once again opening apart his loose coat.
Perhaps you need to go through the motions to understand how these events unfold.

...plus astrakhan collar would have obscured the tie.

What do you mean?



Contemporary child in Astrachan collars & cuffs. Notice how far apart the collars are, how would they obscure a tie? - they couldn't, right?

Regards, Jon S.

[Fisherman]

Miss Marple:

"I have sold many vintage men's overcoats. Heavy wool men's coats even if unbuttoned, tend to hang together, the weight keeping then fairly closed. I have just put one on , standing still and unbuttoned you cannot see under the coat, maybe a glimpse of the jacket, but Hutchison saw not just jacket, but horseshoe pin, goldchain and also waistcoat! Thats impossible"

With respect, Miss Marple; even if this is true as far as the coat you have in your possession goes, you surely not want to claim that this proves the exact same for all overcoats?
We do have a few drawings by contemporary artists, who apparently had no problem to imagine how Astrakhan man may have looked as he walked down that street, and them drawings portray a man whose coat is open quite enough.

"There is tooo much detail, liars over elaborate."

Once again, with respect: If Astrakhan manīs dress had the features Hutchinson speak of, then why would we speak of too much detail? I think one of the ingredients that has had Hutchinson doubted over the years lies in his running into a man with as an elaborate clothing and accessoirs.
This was not the common Eastender, that is clear.

If we go to the East End drawings and photographs section, we can take a look at lots and lots of men, displaying the same sort of clothing: Dark trousers, dark shoes, a dark jacket and some sort of headgear.

And thatīs it. No more.

Of course, if Hutchinson had met such a man in Kellyīs company that night, he would not have been able to supply more than four details about the manīs clothing.
But if you run into a man with a collared shirt, a waistcoat, a dark jacket, covered by an overcoat, a gold chain, a black tie with a horseshoe pin, a felt hat turned down, astrakhan trimmings and gaits and buttoned boots - what should you do? Call it "dark clothing", end of story? I donīt think so.

Imagine, Miss Marple, if you will, that you on Regent Street among all ordinary people meet a man clothed in a pair of bright orange shorts with suspenders, a white t-shirt with the text "SATAN" in capital letters all over it, a large propeller attached to itīs back, between the mans shoulders, bright red facial painting, a screwdriver thrust through both cheeks and coconut shells on his feet.

Make the further assumption that you see this man in company with a good friend of yours! Add to it that you take a keen interest in the man, since there is a rumour going round that a "very strangely clad man" has killed four people.

You follow him around, and you make very effort to get a good look at him.

Do you really imagine that you could not remember what he was wearing if the police asked you about it three days later?

If Astrakhan man differed wildly from the rest of the people in the streets, then this would represent the same sort of thing, all other surrounding factors disregarded.

To further boot things, I happen to be of the opinion that Hutchinson was George William Topping Hutchinson. I think the signatures prove this without any doubt. And I find it very interesting that Reg Hutchinson claimed that his father never took notes about what he needed to fix a plumbing job. All the little bits and pieces, all the tools, the pipes, the fittings - he kept it all in his head.

Iīm afraid your coat will not change any of these things, Miss Marple.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Jon:

"As any man reaches out his "right hand around her shoulders", an unbuttoned coat will open to some degree."

Sense. I like it.

The best,
Fisherman