Romford

[richardnunweek]

Hi folks.
Just to remind everyone that the last sighting of Mjk, was outside the Britannica, at around 845 am , on the morning of the 9th, by Mrs Maxwell , and unlike George Hutchinson gave evidence at the inquest.
I accept so did Mrs Cox[ blotchy], but the last person to have claimed to have seen the millers court victim alive , was Maxwell, so because that is fact as recorded at a official inquest, i for one am looking at the markrt porter[ last male seen with kelly] as number one suspect.
Regards Richard.

[The Grave Maurice]

I rather think that if Hutchinson had meant the pub, he'd have said 'going down to the Romford'.
Has it ever been established if he had connections with Romford, Essex?

Hills and Stocton advert to that point, Graham. They speculate that GH may have been misquoted, and write: Now let’s assume that he said ‘I have spent all my money going down the Romford’ instead of ‘to Romford’. As to whether he had any connection to the town, I've never seen anything written about that. However, as Richard says, we can't discuss that here or we'd have yet another Hutchinson thread on our hands, and that must be avoided at all costs.

[perrymason]

Hi folks.
Just to remind everyone that the last sighting of Mjk, was outside the Britannica, at around 845 am , on the morning of the 9th, by Mrs Maxwell , and unlike George Hutchinson gave evidence at the inquest.
I accept so did Mrs Cox[ blotchy], but the last person to have claimed to have seen the millers court victim alive , was Maxwell, so because that is fact as recorded at a official inquest, i for one am looking at the markrt porter[ last male seen with kelly] as number one suspect.
Regards Richard.

I didnt think I needed to Richard, but Ill qualify my earlier post to add the only believed story is that of Mary Ann Cox, and the last man seen with Mary in the recorded official investigation was seen by Mary Ann Cox at 11:45pm on the 8th in the courtyard and at the door of room 13.

I know your beliefs fly in the face of literally every Ripperologists and most students like myself, but it doesnt help your cause when you offer a witness that was introduced to the case by the investigators as disagreeing with all the previous evidence gathered and submitted.

She was all but called a liar, or a scatterbrain...forgetting the correct day the event happened.... if at all. Her story is not credible based on her own content...Mary comes and confides in her and calls her "Corrie" after only saying hello before twice in 4 months? In one breath she provides the evidence to refute her next breath.....2 passing hellos constitute nothing in terms of the relationship that is suggested by Carrie in her conversation.

Not only is your case all uphill my friend, the only sources it seems you can use are either tainted sources that were disbelieved and are in the records as such, or people within their disbelieved stories.

Not the best foundation, Im sure youll agree.

Cheers Richard

[Roy Corduroy]

Thanks everyone. But we are still trying to determine what was the name, if any of the 1889 "Beer Retailer" at #3 Heneage, right above the B in Brewery, once named the Romford Arms and today the Pride of Spitalfields pub.

A brewery often had a drinking establishment attached to the premises. On the 1894 map sections below, which runs up the east side of Brick Lane, you see two(2) notations for Brewery. So that there be no confusion, we know the topmost brewery is the Black Eagle Brewery of Messrs Truman, Hanbury & Buxton. As a starting point of investigation, the question is:

What was the name of the brewery on Heneage St?

[Garry Wroe]

Were I you, Roy, I'd begin by checking the Post Office Directory for the relevant year(s).

[babybird67]

interesting...

but surely if he meant a local pub, he wouldn't have left too late to get back into his lodging house?

[The Grave Maurice]

You, bb, are obviously one of those fortunate people who has never "stayed too long at the fair".

[babybird67]

hello GM lol

too right. I'm a good girl, I am.

[celee]

Hi folks.
Just to remind everyone that the last sighting of Mjk, was outside the Britannica, at around 845 am , on the morning of the 9th, by Mrs Maxwell , and unlike George Hutchinson gave evidence at the inquest.
I accept so did Mrs Cox[ blotchy], but the last person to have claimed to have seen the millers court victim alive , was Maxwell, so because that is fact as recorded at a official inquest, i for one am looking at the markrt porter[ last male seen with kelly] as number one suspect.
Regards Richard.

Give me hell Richard. Stick to your guns.

Your friend, Brad

[celee]

but surely if he meant a local pub, he wouldn't have left too late to get back into his lodging house?

Hi,

Yep I bet he was talking about the pub. Jen lots of times when I m out drinking I stay out much to late. A responsible person, like you, would have better sence.

Your friend, Brad

[Roy Corduroy]

Were I you, Roy, I'd begin by checking the Post Office Directory for the relevant year(s).

Thank you for the advice, Garry.

In the meantime, the titles of LMA documents suggest the brewery was one of the Ind Coope breweries in 1889 - 1913. Could be where the name Romford Arms came from, because Ind Coope was based in Romford.

The pubcrawl site says it was once affiliated with the "White Lion Brewery." That's a new lead.

Perhaps someone would be kind enough to do pub research and stop by the Pride of Spitalfields. (photo) They might have the answer to when was it the Romford Arms.

Roy

[Robert]

Looking at 3 Heneage St in the 1891 and 1901 census :
in neither census was it listed as a public house, though there was a beer and tobacco retailer living there in 1891. In 1901 he has given way to an electrical engineer.

[Debra A]

Hi Roy,
Just following on from what Robert posted, this site gives the history, census and directory entries of a lot of pubs, here's the Pride of spitalfields page;

http://deadpubs.co.uk/LondonPubs/MileEnd/PrideofSpitalfields.shtml

Although in 1901 there was an electrical engineer living at #3, according to the directories he was a beer retailer also

..sorry, doesn't answer your question about the Romford Arms though!



Also, just a point on the other topic being discussed on this thread, in at least one press article Hutchinson claimed to have been sober on the morning he saw MJK and also said he had not had a drink all day....that's if you are inclined to believe what Hutch had to say at all.

[Roy Corduroy]

Thanks Debra & Robert.

Here is the listing I saw. Didn't go to the archive to read it, of course, I am in America.

ALLIED BREWERIES: IND COOPE BRANCH LMA/4433
Documents relating to the Brewery, Heneage Street, Spitalfields, Stepney METB LMA/4433/A/02/004 1889 - 1913 These documents are held at London Metropolitan Archives

That is the brewery we see on the 1894 OS map. Again, I am suspecting this connects to the name Romford Arms, because the company's main base was Romford, Essex, and they acquired other breweries, obviously this one. But all we've got is the 1979 photograph.

Mark, JB, someone! Can you stop by the Pride and have a pint for the cause? Ask a certain question as to to when this location was the Romford Arms?

Roy

[Garry Wroe]

Hi Roy.

Before putting yourself to more trouble, you might care to check the Daily News, 14th November, 1888, in which Hutchinson was quoted as stating:-

'On Thursday last I had been to Romford, in Essex, and I returned from there about two o'clock on Friday morning, having walked all the way.'

Fairly unequivocal, wouldn't you say?

Regards,

Garry Wroe.