Joseph Lawende & Israel Schwartz - Gross Police Neglicence?

[Ben]

I meant more along the lines of that he was routinely checked against the description given by Lawende

Extremely unlikely, Ichabod, especially when we know that individuals who most assuredly did not match Lawende's suspect in terms of age and other attributes (Ostrong, Klosowski) were still suspected in spite their physical mismatch. If they were really using Lawende's suspect as some sort of major barometer of suspect merit, those individuals would have fizzled out long ago. Barnett mentioned the extent of his (somewhat inevitable) treatment as a suspect in his statement at the inquest, which contained nothing concerning any witness ID attempts.

Ben

[halomanuk]

The police had to keep an open mind as best they could regarding Lawende's suspect,it just wasn't concrete enough in many ways.

[Malcolm X]

Very unlikely in Hutchinson's case, Ichabod. In 1888, the "checking" potential was extremely limited, and Hutchinson claimed to have been "walking around all night" at the presumed time of Kelly's death, which is nigh on impossibe to verify or contradict. As for the other murders, Hutchinson could have claimed (falsely or truthfully, it doesn't matter) that he was asleep in the Victoria Home on the previous nights, in the full and certain knowledge that it couldn't be confirmed or denied. The chances of anyone having an alibi at such an ungodly hour - especially a single lodger - was effectively nil.

Best regards,
Ben

Ben you're way off topic mate, i've done the same today too...but you do it more often than me

Hutch would've been in serious trouble if he matched the Lawende suspect description that's for sure, because unlike the other weak suspects that we have, HUTCH actually admitted that he was at a murder site for way too long, now this looks very suspicious and back then too! . ..the 2nd LAWENDE suspect description came out on the 6th november from Swanson, so they obviously considered this suspect sighting as very strong indeed.

common sense tells you...`` does this Hutchinson match the Lawende suspect?``..........`` no sir``.....``damn it``

[Malcolm X]

The police had to keep an open mind as best they could regarding Lawende's suspect,it just wasn't concrete enough in many ways.

this is so true, but they would've been very suspicious if HUTCH matched him.

[Ben]

I agree with most of what you say, Mal, but regarding:

common sense tells you...`` does this Hutchinson match the Lawende suspect?``..........`` no sir``.....``damn

I'm not sure why this would follow?

Even if Hutchinson did match the very broad details described by Lawende, it wouldn't count for a great deal, considering that thousands of men could potentially fit just as well. The Lawende sighting would only acquire significance if he was brought in to look Hutch over, but the evidence suggests that Lawende was not being used for such purposes at that stage.

Best regards,
Ben

[halomanuk]

Yep..back to the I.D parade that never was again,such a missed opportunity that..

[Malcolm X]

I agree with most of what you say, Mal, but regarding:



I'm not sure why this would follow?

Even if Hutchinson did match the very broad details described by Lawende, it wouldn't count for a great deal, considering that thousands of men could potentially fit just as well. The Lawende sighting would only acquire significance if he was brought in to look Hutch over, but the evidence suggests that Lawende was not being used for such purposes at that stage.

Best regards,
Ben

oh good, hi BEN, we're on the right thread well this isn't the right thread either but it'll have to do for now!

yes this is true, but maybe this is because HUTCH looked nothing like LAWENDE's suspect so they didn't bother...........after all, the basic description of H is......``short and stocky``.

but also consider this, they dropped the LAWENDE suspect because HUTCH described a LA DE DA jew and at first, ABBERLINE believed him, so LA DE DA became their new UNO NUMERO suspect.

later HUTCH was dismissed as unreliable..........so VOILA, the Lawende suspect was back in favour later on/Holiday home....the police weren't at fault at all, the eyewitnesses were bloody useless, even LAWENDE said he wouldn't be able to recognise him again, Schwartz too and i bet the same goes for Cox/ Lewis..i mean both the LAWENDE and SCHWARTZ descriptions vary the second time around

i'm very open minded about all of this, i think we have to me because it's such a mess.

[perrymason]

It seems the premise of the thread is that the police should have created line-ups for the witnesses Schwartz and Lawende, using men that were under suspicion.

To me that brings up a legal issue....could or can Police demand that someone not accused of a crime must put himself in a suspect line-up? My gut answer.. without knowing the legalities, is no.

I am among the few that doubt Lawende is the Jewish man that was thought to refuse giving evidence against a suspect who was being held in a mental institution. His own statements to the press....which were not supressed by the police outside the Inquest, suggested he could not identify the man again, and did not get a good look at him. So what possible purpose could be served parading Sadler by him after Alice's murder?

With Schwartz, I cannot yet prove this, but my suspicion is that a Jewish Socialist outside a Jewish Socialist club at approx 12:45am, that regularly had Saturday night meetings which often ended with members chatting and smoking in Dutfields Yard past 1am...according to neighbors, with some rough characters in attendance based on the "low men" description of them, ...perhaps meant that Schwartz wasnt seeing if his wife finished moving 12 hours after she began, ...likely only moving clothing and personal possessions, and that he may have attended that meeting.

If so, his entire statement could be seen as an attempt to place the guilt for Liz's death on a man seen scuffling with her, outside the yard. Perhaps thats why he wasnt called at the Inquest, or used as an eye witness in line-ups.

I believe its possible the altercation at 12:45 happened inside the yard, that there were club members in the yard. After a meeting its conceivable that she was there to pick up clients, or she was there to meet someone still on the premises...maybe a man who returned to the club at 12:40am. The notion against her soliciting is her refusal to go along with BSM's advances.

Best regards all.

[Roy Corduroy]

Hi Ichabod,

Here is the report of a lineup that took place. 2nd paragraph (click here)

Roy

[Ben]

yes this is true, but maybe this is because HUTCH looked nothing like LAWENDE's suspect so they didn't bother

Could be, Malcolm, but I doubt it.

Consider Thomas Sadler - he was bearded, in his fifties, and superficially looked nothing like Lawende's man, but they didn't just sent him packing because he didn't seem to match. They still got Lawende to look at him, and of course Lawende gave him the thumbs down. The difference with Hutchinson is that A) There's no evidence that he was ever considered a suspect, and B) There's no evidence that they were using Lawende in the capacity of a potential suspect-identifier at that stage.

but also consider this, they dropped the LAWENDE suspect because HUTCH described a LA DE DA jew and at first, ABBERLINE believed him, so LA DE DA became their new UNO NUMERO suspect. later HUTCH was dismissed as unreliable..........so VOILA, the Lawende suspect was back in favour later

Indeed, Malcom. That seems very reasonable indeed.

Best regards,
Ben

[Malcolm X]

Could be, Malcolm, but I doubt it.

Consider Thomas Sadler - he was bearded, in his fifties, and superficially looked nothing like Lawende's man, but they didn't just sent him packing because he didn't seem to match. They still got Lawende to look at him, and of course Lawende gave him the thumbs down. The difference with Hutchinson is that A) There's no evidence that he was ever considered a suspect, and B) There's no evidence that they were using Lawende in the capacity of a potential suspect-identifier at that stage.



Indeed, Malcom. That seems very reasonable indeed.

Best regards,
Ben

first paragraph :- yes that's true, but have you considered why HUTCH was never regarded as a suspect.........maybe it's because they knew he wasn't the Ripper, for some reason that we dont know of!............you cannot escape this possibility.

but maybe it's due to LA DE DA........who knows

i can not put up a strong case to argue against you, because i'm not sure myself..........i can only try to give you food for thought.

i'm saying ``buyer beware``, to me HUTCH looks innocent and at the same time guilty as well, if the RIPPER was mega intelligent and devil may care, then he's the killer...............in fact, if you take this line, then HUTCH looks as guilty as hell.

us two think the same, just like two years ago......but i think we need to be careful lest we cant see the wood for the trees

[Malcolm X]

bloody hell, we've turned this into another HUTCH thread.....
gross police negligence, no they were good at their job, but were let down by poor eyewitnesses

[c.d.]

Hi Ben,

Don't you think that Abberline had Lawende's description memorized down to the last detail?

c.d.

[Ben]

Hi Malcolm,

first paragraph :- yes that's true, but have you considered why HUTCH was never regarded as a suspect.........maybe it's because they knew he wasn't the Ripper

I can't completely eradicate the possibility, but it would take some pretty strong "alibi"s for that to have happened, and realistically, if Hutchinson wasn't the killer, the chances are strong that he was sleeping in the Victoria Home at the time of the murders, which still wouldn't have been an alibi. I'd say it's more likely that either he was never suspected, or they did briefly suspect him, but as with the Green River case, they didn't have the goods to cement their case.

Don't you think that Abberline had Lawende's description memorized down to the last detail?

It's likely that he had it on file somewhere, CD, yes.

Best wishes,
Ben

[DVV]

Hi David,

For what it's worth, I agree entirely that Millwood and Wilson make for viable early "ripper" victims. I'm personally disinclined to attach much blame for the police for ruling out a possible connection, if that's what happened. Victim-linkage remains a grey area to this day, despite a century's worth of serial killers elapsing since the Whitechapel murders. We've now accrued sufficient evidence to suggest a serial killer's early offences will often be unplanned and haphazard in nature, often bearing little resemblance to later crimes. Both Millwood and Wilson would fit the bill rather well in this regard.

I agree that Ada Wilson's version of events is heavily off-set by the account attributed to Rose Bierman. It's quite possible that she wished to conceal the fact that she soliciting.

Best regards,
Ben

P.S. Yes, sorry everyone, back to the orginal premise of the thread!

Hi Ben,
and thanks. Stewart thinks that Ada was attacked by a thief who knocked her door around midnight, while Millwood stabbed herself in the "lower torso".
That's too much ridiculous to deserve a reply.

Amitiés,
David