Why is Lawende definitely Anderson's Witness?

[perrymason]

The problem is we know only what we have been told about his statement, it doesnt exist anymore, and we do know that he was not included in the Inquest at all. He did flee home, not to get a copper, so that does bode well for the part of the story that has him being fearful...and kind of wimpy actually, if "fled incontinently" was actually based on fact. Interesting reaction for a man I believe who was 28. Diemshutz comes off the same way in his statement, scared and panicked, and he was only 30....and in just a few months would attack police with a club or a stick in that same yard.

I think that Schwartz may have been a member of that club, the police discovered that, and felt his story was tainted as a result. Because that would mean he likely lied about the very start of his story, that he happened to be coming by to check on a move that had likely been long over for hours, and probably came from the meeting. And, because it introduces a killer that only he sees, and that comes from off that property, not on it. He gives The Socialists a virtual hand-washing of any complicity.

edit again.....and my bet is that the police werent ready to dismiss the idea that these murders might be some social anarchy at work.

Best regards.

[Jeff Leahy]

as you say it doesn't go against his refussal to testify and possibly that he new of or who BS man was..

Which would make identifying the suspect somewhat easier..

If Kosminski was the suspect, as I said perhaps the purpose of the identity parade was to try and get a confession from Kosminski

not to build a case to take to court which they would have had little chance of winning

Pirate

PS Merry Xmas Michael

[Ben]

Hi Pirate,

I wouldn't say Anderson was lying so much as over-egging the pudding. It's quite possible that he convinced himself that the witness refused to swear on the grounds that the suspect was a fellow Jew, rather than simple uncertainty (which wouldn't be surprising two years after the initial sighting).

I may be a little behind on the Kosminski-research front, but I'm not sure how probable it is that he was resident at Greenfield Street at the time. If he was walking his dog in Cheapside and foraging in the gutters in the same locality (by a witness who also lived there) doesn't it suggest that Kosminski was more likely to be living there in 1888?

Best regards,
Ben

[Jeff Leahy]

Its possilble that Anderson was egging Ben (nice expression) But there is no proof for this either way, depends whether you sit in the Evan's or Fido camp, its a fair scolarly debate.

My understanding is that Kosminski's family were most probably in Greenfeild Street around the time of the murders...at least last time I discussed the problem with Rob House..

I've some more to add on Swanson/Anderson but i need to go and earn a crust so will post tomorrow

Merry Xmas all

Pirate

[perrymason]

Hi Pirate,

I wouldn't say Anderson was lying so much as over-egging the pudding. It's quite possible that he convinced himself that the witness refused to swear on the grounds that the suspect was a fellow Jew, rather than simple uncertainty (which wouldn't be surprising two years after the initial sighting).

Best regards,
Ben

Ben, Pirate,

I like that take on the opinion why the refusal to id occurred Ben, and I also think that leads into an area that is certainly related to this topic....the impressions of the local authorities about the huge Jewish population of poor people, many being Socialists. Im sorry to be accusing them without specific proof...but my feeling is that there was resentment, there was to some degree anger, and there was some anti-semetism.

The word "Jew" was used all the time by those authorities, which is far less respectful than "a Jewish Man, "the suspect was Jewish", "he was a Polish man who was Jewish"... its a term thats so blunt one can only forgive it if one Jew says it to another....its something akin to a slap in the face...., but in the same way a black man would object to being called a "n****r" by a caucasian, and still might accept that term from a black friend. Even then, it is used to demean I think.

Merry Xmas to you too Pirate.

Best regards

[Chris]

I may be a little behind on the Kosminski-research front, but I'm not sure how probable it is that he was resident at Greenfield Street at the time. If he was walking his dog in Cheapside and foraging in the gutters in the same locality (by a witness who also lived there) doesn't it suggest that Kosminski was more likely to be living there in 1888?

It's difficult to be sure, but we know that at the time (February 1891) when Jacob Cohen gave information about Aaron Kozminski to Dr Houchin, Aaron had just been admitted to the workhouse from the address of his brother-in-law, Morris Lubnowski Cohen, in Greenfield Street. Although Jacob Cohen gave an address in the City of London, that seems to have been only a business address, not the address where he lived.

The Cheapside incident was in December 1889. We know that the elder of Aaron's brothers, Isaac, was living in Greenfield Street throughout this period (as was Morris). Although we don't know where the other brother, Woolf, was living at the time of the murders, we do know that he was living in Yalford Street in May 1889 and was at Sion Square by February 1890 (where he remained until at least 1891). I think it's safe to assume that he didn't move far away during this period, because his 7-year-old daughter Rebecca continued to attend Settles Street School.

So I think the likelihood is that Aaron was living in the Greenfield Street/Yalford Street/Sion Square area at the time of the dog-walking incident. Having said that, it's still possible that Woolf may have been living elsewhere earlier on, at the time of the murders, and that Aaron may have been living with him.

[Ben]

Thanks for refreshing my memory, Chris.

It occured to me at the time that Cheapside and St. Pauls was an odd place for Aaron to be walking a dog if he actually lived in Greenfield Street at the time, unless he was saying a temporary residence in the City.

All the best,
Ben

[Chris]

It occured to me at the time that Cheapside and St. Pauls was an odd place for Aaron to be walking a dog if he actually lived in Greenfield Street at the time, unless he was saying a temporary residence in the City.

Yes - it seems particularly unlikely that he would have been able to walk the dog for such a long distance unchallenged, as he was breaking the law by doing so. Perhaps it was the dog's owner, "Jacobs", who lived nearby. And it's always possible that Aaron stayed at more than a single address. That might explain the statement that he gave a false address when challenged.

[Jeff Leahy]

Many thanks for that information Chris, and merry Xmas.

Hi Michael

Don’t wish to drag to far off thread and I am happy to move thread if you feel it appropriate but I am interested in your comments on Schwartz and the possibility that there was more to his involvement than his claim to be walking home.

Just to recap on a couple of relevant points re: the identification.

In reply to Jewish columnist ‘Mentor’ Anderson said that he was “ not speaking as an expert in crime, but s a man who investigated the facts”

Surely hinting at the fact that, as in the Alice McKenzie case, Anderson was very much hands on in the identification.

Both Anderson and Swanson are unlikely to have invented the story given that they were both, particularly Anderson, likely to have what they said questioned by other officers and people involved. He is unlikely to have put himself in a position of claiming things he could not substantiate.

Re Swanson: That Swanson was present at the identification might also be apparent from his claim, “that the suspect knew he had been identified’ which he uses twice. So it appears to have some importance for him. If the Suspect reacted to the witness in mutual recognition it would add credence to the witnesses ID. It might also suggest that this was something Swanson had witnessed.

So I’m suggesting that possibly Schwartz new of or had seen around BS man before or after the attack on Liz Stride. I would be interested in your views on Shwartz as that witness.

Merry Xmas all

Pirate

[Chris]

Here is a transcript of the entry for Joseph Lavender's household in the 1911 census:

Joseph Lavender / Head / 64 / Married / Traveller (Tobacco) / Worker / Russian Poland. (Resident) / Natd Brit Subj (1889
Annie Lavender / Wife / 55 / Married / / / London (City)
Ellis Lavender / Son / 27 / Single / Silver Mounter (Pipes) / Worker / London Whitechapel
Ray Lavender / Daughter / 25 / Single / Manageress (Jewellers) / Worker / London Dalston
Lily Lavender / Daughter / 23 / Single / Assistant (Confectioners) / Worker / London Dalston
May Lavender / Daughter / 21 / Single / Assistant (Jewellers) / Worker / London Dalston
Ruby Lavender / Daughter / 16 / Single / School / / London Highbury
Leonard Lavender / Son / 14 / Single [deleted?] / Junior Clerk (Tea Merchants) / Worker / London Highbury

Annie: married 38 years; 12 children born alive to present marriage; 12 still living; 0 children who have died

7 Rooms
Signature Joseph Lavender
Postal Address 17 Wallace Rd. Highbury N

[RG14/968, registration district 10, sub-district 7, enumeration district 1, schedule number 152]

And here is an image showing his signature:

[Chris]

I've posted an attempt at a page for Lawende in the wiki section:

http://wiki.casebook.org/index.php/Joseph_Lawende

I hope I haven't omitted anything significant and that there aren't too many blunders. If people do spot errors or omissions, they are welcome either to edit the wiki page or to post suggestions here.

[Shelley]

Just a small question which has probably been brought up before, but when Anderson mentioned his witness identifying his Polish Jew suspect, why is it always assumed to be Lawende as that witness?

Why, for example, is it never assumed to be Israel Schwartz? Is it because Stride lacked the signature mutilations of the other victims and the likelihood of her being a Ripper victim is slightly less diminished in comparison to Eddowes and that for the Ripperologists who want to believe Kosminski's or Cohen's culpability they make it easier for themselves to tie it in with Eddowes?

Or is it just a definite fact that Lawende was the only witness to ever, misquote, get a good look at the murderer, un-misquote?

I wouldn't have thought that there needed to be a tie in to support Cohen or Kosminski and disregard Stride, it's just that cut-throats were a common feature and that you did get your sadistic to a degree type roughians who just wanted to prey on women that were on the streets at the time to get money out of, heck it's not been uncommon for some policemen even in the twentieth century to demand money ( oops and 21st century as well) from the public ( a case of in the job for the wrong reasons, but not all of them). JTR was intentionally after to the primary cause of cutting the women open and had a need for it, so he was highly unlikely to target a victim with a situation that would arise for a job ' Half-done ', JTR would have ensured his need to mutilate his victims, need takes presidence over everything. Stride was possibly used as a warning to others, as was Tabram and some others, so possibly just a cut-throat roughian from a gang killed Stride.

[Stephen Thomas]

Following on from Chris Scott's fine Wiki entry (link on Post#26 above) on Lawende, here are sections of the Booth Poverty Map showing streets where he lived.

1881.Tenter Street South, not to be confused with Tenter Street in Spitalfields and just two streets above Chamber Street where Frances Coles was killed. The street layout is still the same today.


!888. Norfolk Road, Dalston. This road no longer exists, probably due to its proximity to the slum area (including another Dorset Street) just above it. Dalston is the North West corner of the East End of London. Booth's man gets a little lyrical when describing Norfolk Road saying 'Its houses have small back gardens in which newly washed clothes were drying. Over the walls you caught sight of the heads of sunflowers and hollyhocks'. Definitely a step up from Tenter Street South.


1891. Upper Street, Islington. No map here but very close to the Canonbury area shown below

1894-1925. Four different addresses in the Mildmay Park area. The second map here shows Canonbury Station then as now on Wallace Road. The first map here also shows that other Dorset Street, so we can see that from 1888 to 1925 when he died, Mr Lawende lived in a very small geographic area.

[Chris]

Following on from Chris Scott's fine Wiki entry (link on Post#26 above) on Lawende, here are sections of the Booth Poverty Map showing streets where he lived.

Thank you for posting those interesting maps.

Curiously, at the time of his marriage, Joseph Lawende lived at 3 Tenter Street South, and his bride Annie Lowenthal lived at 3 Tenter Street North.

PS I'm afraid I'm still not Chris Scott.

[Stephen Thomas]

PS I'm afraid I'm still not Chris Scott.