Why is Lawende definitely Anderson's Witness?

[Chris]

Hi all,
I have been out of the picture on here for a while AGAIN due to personal commitments but have just heard (rather late of course ) that there is a family photo of Joseph Lawende !!
Can someone post a 'linky' or let me know where i can pick it up quickly to have a look ?

The photograph was published in Ripperologist number 87 (January 2008). The accompanying article and a detail from the photo showing Lawende's face can be seen on this site:

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rip-the-man-who-saw.html

[halomanuk]

Brilliant...thanks Chris..

[caz]

Isn't this getting a bit silly?

Just because Schwartz happened to run away rather than intervening or calling for help, that doesn't mean the murderer wouldn't have been taking a huge risk by attacking his victim in full view of passers-by.

As for whether it was his "normal approach" how many reports have you seen of Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes or Kelly being attacked in front of witnesses just before their deaths? Aren't the indications that the other victims were taken to a secluded spot in order to be killed, rather than being attacked in front of witnesses?

Hi Chris,

I only just saw your response to one of my posts on this thread. Sorry for not responding sooner.

As my posts will show, I have no problem with the ripper preferring to take a prospective victim to a secluded spot before killing and mutilating her. As my posts will also show, I am open to the idea of him not doing anything to Stride in front of witnesses, but possibly making a move on her unobserved after a disapproving passer-by, in the form of BS man, had taken himself off. If the ripper then failed to persuade her to go somewhere more secluded than this busy club entrance, he could have decided to cut and run and try to find himself a better bet.

What seems silly to me is the notion that only the ripper would have been taking a huge risk to attack a prostitute in the area in September 1888 ‘in full view of passers-by’. If we accept that BS did exactly that, it was a considerable risk for him, regardless of whether he left the woman alive to run to the nearest copper and report this completely unprovoked attack (confirming what Schwartz and Pipe Man could have been telling the same copper for all he knew), or went straight on to slit her throat and scarper, in such a ripper-like manner that many policeman at the time believed it was the ripper’s work. Whoever this character was, he risked being identified and arrested on suspicion of being the man wanted for the recent unprovoked murders of prostitutes in the area, and he was lucky to come away unscathed.

Ben's choice of words illustrated the point rather well, I thought:

But a prostitute being attacked and manhandled assumes an obvious resonance in the context of the fact that a serial killer was active in the district, and the fact that the victim was murdered just moments after the attack. Without question, both crucial factors elevate the significance of the attack witnessed by Schwartz well above that of a casual street attack.

If the ripper wouldn’t have allowed himself to be seen either attacking or manhandling an unfortunate, then it follows it was some other unknown man - BS - who had no such qualms on this occasion and rushed in where Jack feared to tread.

Love,

Caz
X

[Chris]

What seems silly to me is the notion that only the ripper would have been taking a huge risk to attack a prostitute in the area in September 1888 ‘in full view of passers-by’. ...

I think it's rather obvious why a murderer would have been taking a much bigger risk than someone perpetrating a casual assault. He would have been risking his life.

[c.d.]

Hi Caz,

The fact that the BS man (if he was Liz's killer) chose to kill her after being seen by two witnesses has always been a red flag for me. This is especially strange since he saw Schwartz run off presumably looking for the nearest policeman. Some people respond to this by saying that the BS man was in a rage and just didn't give a damn. Now that could certainly be the case. But here is the problem I have with that -- just when did this rage start? If his rage was apparent when he threw Liz to the ground, why did she not scream her head off and appeal to Schwartz and the Pipe Man for help? Her actions seem to indicate that she felt she was not in real danger. Liz was a veteran of the streets. Would she have been so naive as to not pick up on the BS man's anger and the danger that she was in? I suppose the BS could have concealed just how angry he was but is that really realistic?

c.d.

[Ben]

Hi CD,

If his rage was apparent when he threw Liz to the ground, why did she not scream her head off and appeal to Schwartz and the Pipe Man for help?

Never really got the hang of this argument. Far simpler, surely, to accept that she didn't have a particularly loud scream, or she was too busy fending off her attacker to vocalize her fear to a great extent? Both extremely workable and logical explanations. There is nothing that would indicate a lack of fear on Stride's part of a lack of anger of BS'.

Best regards,
Ben

[c.d.]

Hi Ben,

Aren't screams by their very nature supposed to be loud?

c.d.

[Ben]

Hi CD,

Yes, but some people are capable of screaming louder than others.

Ben

[Sam Flynn]

Yes, but some people are capable of screaming louder than others.

Indeed, Ben. Those seeking confirmation should watch the first 6 seconds of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BKRZTalEys

[Fisherman]

The one thing I feel is important here is that Schwartz obviously was surprised by the low sound of the cries Stride produced - you don´t mention such a thing if you don´t find it remarkable.
Therefore, my own contention is that what Schwartz actually meant was that she cried out lower than he would have expected her to, given the circumstances.

The best,
Fisherman

[c.d.]

That's a good point, Fisherman.

c.d.

[ChrisGeorge]

May I come over all Sam Flynnish and To get back to Lawende, I noted from Chris's fine Wiki entry on him that Lawende lived at four addresses all within less than a square mile for the last 30 odd years of his life. This area is just north of the Balls Pond Road, a major East-West artery in North London since Medieval times. It's not too far from where I live, so the other day I went off to find Lawende's houses. I'd never heard the name Mildmay in my life so I was bemused to see all the streets in this small area with the name. There's Mildmay Road, Mildmay Park, Mildmay Street, Mildmay Grove, Mildmay Place and Mildmay Avenue. I presume it used to be land owned by this Tudor fellow, a friend of Queen Elizabeth the First no less.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Mildmay

Thanks for the great photographs of the houses and area where Joseph Lawende lived. Here is some more information from a local history guide from the local Islington government: Mildmay Local History Trail (pdf file):

"The first, smaller Mildmay Library was opened in 1954. It was enlarged and reopened as Islington’s first fully computerised library in 1987. Walk a little way up Mildmay Park. In 1886 a small synagogue was built in the gardens of No.39 but ceased to function in the 1930’s. Cross the road (taking care as the road is v busy). Mildmay Park was developed in the 1850’s when Lady St. John Mildmay sold off parts of her Mildmay Estate for building development. Turn right into Mildmay Grove South. Mildmay Groves North & South were built in the 1870’s after the North London Railway was laid in 1848. . . ."

I don't know the exact relationship between the St. John-Mildmay line and the Tudor aristocrat Walter Mildmay but there is some genealogical information on the St. John-Mildmays here: http://thepeerage.com/p2859.htm -- there probably is a relationship between Walter Mildmay and the St. John-Mildmays, because they all owned land in the Chelmsford, Essex area.

Chris

[Mort Belfry]

If his rage was apparent when he threw Liz to the ground, why did she not scream her head off and appeal to Schwartz and the Pipe Man for help?

Think about where this information came from; if you were a man and saw a woman assaulted who screamed out for help, who you ignored, and was dead the next morning, wouldn't you downplay how much she screamed?

The police at the time seemed unequivacol about Stride being a Ripper victim, I don't think Shwartz had in mind the scores of Ripperolgists debating it on the net a century later.

[thegaff]

Think about where this information came from; if you were a man and saw a woman assaulted who screamed out for help, who you ignored, and was dead the next morning, wouldn't you downplay how much she screamed?

The police at the time seemed unequivacol about Stride being a Ripper victim, I don't think Shwartz had in mind the scores of Ripperolgists debating it on the net a century later.

Good point Belfry. Sometimes the obvious is easily overlooked.
I used to think Stride was not a JTR victim but as time has moved on I am having second thoughts, but I'll save that for another thread.

[Jez]

Think about where this information came from; if you were a man and saw a woman assaulted who screamed out for help, who you ignored, and was dead the next morning, wouldn't you downplay how much she screamed?

The police at the time seemed unequivacol about Stride being a Ripper victim, I don't think Shwartz had in mind the scores of Ripperolgists debating it on the net a century later.

I also totally agree. An ear or eye witness of a Ripper murder was probably gong to massively play down their evidence in public, since clearly they did nothing to help the victim at the time. This is probably as true for Albert Cadosch in Hanbury Street.