Why is Lawende definitely Anderson's Witness?

[Ben]

Hi CD,

You continue to insist that Liz being thrown to the ground constituted a vicious and unprovoked attack.

Because that's the indication from Schwartz's account. We can't pin some aggressive behaviour onto Stride herself with no evidence. We do know that BS-man didn't shove him first becaue Schwartz witnessed the man stop and talk to her. He didn't observe any belligerance whatsoever on Stride's part.

If the BS man could give a reasonable explanation for his actions, I would venture to say that based on the policeman's mood that evening and his feelings towards prostitutes that he might have let the BS man go with a simple admonition to go on home.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. All serial killer murders start with an attack. If Kurten, Sutcliffe, Pitchfork or Napper were witnessed by a policeman in the earlier throes of an attack, the chances are strong that it would resemble the broad-shouldered attack in many respects. If the policeman knew that there was a serial killer active on the district, and found a knife on the attacker he caught, you can bet everything you hold dear that the policeman would not have released him on the spot with a simple "admonition", and the same is true of the broad-shouldered attack if that was witnessed by a policeman.

Would the newspaper headlines scream "prostitute thrown to the ground" "police vow full investigation?"

But a prostitute being attacked and manhandled assumes an obvious resonance in the context of the fact that a serial killer was active in the district, and the fact that the victim was murdered just moments after the attack. Without question, both crucial factors elevate the significance of the attack witnessed by Schwartz well above that of a casual street attack.

But if the BS man simply cussed her out afterwards and walked away it seems a lot less sinister and very far from vicious.

But if we remind ourselves that Stride was murdered just minutes after this attack, it's practically certain that he didn't just "walk away", but continued in the attack that resulted in her death.

Best regards,
Ben

[c.d.]

Hi Ben,

Let's go back to the cachous. The last we see of Liz is her being pulled into the street according to Schwartz. But her body is found in a corner of the yard. If she had just been viciously assaulted, is it reasonable to assume that she would willingly enter the dark recesses of the yard with that very same man? I would say no and that it is much more reasonable to think that she was dragged or pulled into the yard. Yet, if this was the case, the bag of cachous remained in her hand unbroken the whole time. Possible I suppose but to me not so probable. This is one of the real problems I have with the BS man being her killer and something for which the timeline cannot account.

c.d.

[Ben]

Hi CD,

The last we see of Liz is her being pulled into the street according to Schwartz.

No, the last we see of Liz is her being turned around and thrown back in the direction of the kerb adjoining the yard.

If she had just been viciously assaulted, is it reasonable to assume that she would willingly enter the dark recesses of the yard with that very same man?

No, not willingly. He could easily have been dragged her, while a hapless Liz attempted to fend him off with her balled up fists containing the cachous, or she could have been threatened with a bit of knife pursuation. "You, in the yard, now, or else". She wouldn't have dropped the cachous in that scenario either. She would have dropped the cachous in the scenario involving the imaginary second attacker who, regular as clockwork, sidles up seductively to Stride in the sterotypical "Jack" manner before taking her by suprise. Doesn't work. The more sudden and unexpected the attack, the higher the chances of blind instinct taking over and the cahous being relinquished.

Best regards,
Ben

[Christine]

Oh to have that one lobbed my way and have somebody else respond before I could jump in with a smart ass answer. That hurts. Opportunities like that don't come along every day.

c.d.

Whoops, I thought I was being helpful too. Ah well, BS is BS.

[c.d.]

Hi Christine,

Just so we are clear. My smart ass answer would not have been directed towards you. Yours was a legitimate question.

c.d.

[Shelley]

With all due respect, Brad, that is simply your opinion. You may well be right, but equally you may be wrong. There is not enough evidence to give us a reliable timeline and nobody witnessed what happened between Schwartz's incontinent exit (if we can rely on him at all) and the pony and cart fetching up by Liz's dead body.



Excellent points, c.d.

I don't think BS man (whoever he was) was necessarily intending to use a knife on Liz when pulling her about. Nor do I think she would have seen this as anything other than an occupational hazard of hanging around clubs in the early hours - hence no thought of appealing for assistance from other passers-by. We need to use what evidence we have before we start filling in the gaps with speculation that doesn't sit well with that evidence.



But Ben, Jack was active in the area that night, so he was on the lookout for just the sort of vulnerable women who routinely had to put up with rough treatment by men who, like him, felt nothing but contempt for them. How long do you think he would have needed to roam the streets or the pubs on a Saturday night before witnessing some kind of dust-up involving one of the scores of downtrodden women out and about hoping to beg, borrow or steal a few pennies, a drink or just a bit of male company? How could it possibly be called an 'implausible coincidence' if he had simply taken advantage of one such dust-up?

You've obviously not been out on a Friday or Saturday night anywhere in Croydon, if you seriously think it would be an implausible coincidence for a loner with a knife and an urge to use it to come across (or sniff out more like) an argument in progress and get stuck in himself. But I don’t think you do seriously think that, in which case it must be your agenda talking. Perhaps we can leave it there so yet another thread doesn't get diverted down Hutchinson Way. In the meantime, you would be well advised to read up on the Sally Anne Bowman case. By your logic, if it had happened back in 1888, with no forensics, you’d swear that her innocent ex-boyfriend must have murdered her because he admitted they had been arguing in his car just seconds before she was subjected to a horrific knife attack. Her killer was watching and waiting for the boyfriend to drive off so he could pounce. He may even have got off on the row he witnessed. Not only that, but her killer had tried and failed to attack another woman with a knife earlier the same night, so it was a genuine double event!



Watch my lips, Ben: nor do I.

But it’s far from being the only perfectly plausible scenario.



Hi Shelley,

Only if Liz was willing to slink off quietly somewhere slightly more suitable for his nasty deed than a busy club entrance with ponies and carts and all sorts coming and going at any moment.

Love,

Caz
X

Caz,
Why would the killer had been adamant on Liz, was the east-end short of middle-aged part-time or full time professional ladies of the night? Also the height and features of Nicholls, Eddowes & Chapman were different than that of Liz, but all three apart from Liz were similar. Also why would he have drawn attention to himself by shouting ' Lipski ' when all was quiet with Nicholls, Chapman & Eddowes? Lawende, Levy & Co stated that the man with Eddowes was quiet, she didn't seem alarmed and was talking with the man, she was even comfortable with putting her hand upon him, this seems somewhat different a character who was in full view of others, shouting and getting really rough with Liz. Not to mention that it has already been established with others before now, that JTR got his victims to face away from him, perhaps to bend over for him, then he held his hand over thier mouth & perhaps slipped onto thier jaw as with the bruising and possible thumb marks, then cutting thier throats as to not get blood on himself, so others are not looking for a blood-stained killer, like the possibility of a mix-up with said Batty street Lodger, or that possibly of a midwife as in Jill the ripper....The mind boggles as to why a woman middle aged and not preganant would bend over and lift her skirts for a midwife!.Also many a part-time prostitute or a full time one for that matter would slink off somewhere quietly, so as not to be accosted by a policeman, or an angry missus and around the St Boltoph area plenty could be had, as in the case of Eddowes at a later time after all the younger ones had been taken off, and given the time frame of Nicholls, Chapman & Eddowes it was early hours of the morning, not just before midnight or just before 1 'o' clock in the moring. Sorry i just don't buy it Caz.

[c.d.]

Hi Ben,

You say that Liz screamed three times in protest. Schwatz stated that she screamed three times but not loudly. If she was in fear of her life (and for all she knew she might have just encountered Jack) why did she not scream loudly in hopes that Shwartz, the Pipe Man or perhaps someone from the club would come to her rescue? To me, it indicates that she was more startled than frightened which seems inconsistent with being the victim of a vicious attack.

c.d.

[Ben]

To me, it indicates that she was more startled than frightened which seems inconsistent with being the victim of a vicious attack.

Sorry, CD, but we really can't make assumptions like that. There needn't be any consistency in victim reaction, and three non-loud screams could be explained away by any number of reasons. Maybe she was startled? Maybe she was too busy struggling? Maybe she didn't have a very loud scream? And so on and so forth. None of those reasons would make the attack any less vicious. Surely you're not arguing that the volume of the screams meant that Stride didn't want anyone to come to her rescue?

Edits to previous post: "He could easily have dragged her, while a hapless Liz attempted to fend him off with her balled up fists containing the cachous, or she could have been threatened with a bit of knife persuasion."

Ben

[celee]

With all due respect, Brad, that is simply your opinion. You may well be right, but equally you may be wrong. There is not enough evidence to give us a reliable timeline and nobody witnessed what happened between Schwartz's incontinent exit (if we can rely on him at all) and the pony and cart fetching up by Liz's dead body.

X

Hi Caz,

Again, I am not concerned with the timeline. Shwartz probably was mistaken about the time. I simply claim, If Shwartz saw the man who killed Srtide, then the man killed Stride straight off. He did not get scared off by anyone else.

Your friend, Brad

[Shelley]

Hi Ben,

You say that Liz screamed three times in protest. Schwatz stated that she screamed three times but not loudly. If she was in fear of her life (and for all she knew she might have just encountered Jack) why did she not scream loudly in hopes that Shwartz, the Pipe Man or perhaps someone from the club would come to her rescue? To me, it indicates that she was more startled than frightened which seems inconsistent with being the victim of a vicious attack.

c.d.

C.D,
It depends on the distance between the witness and Stride at the time, it had been established that Liz had got on quite well with people even though she was given to a tipple of the alcoholic kind, so she may have been quite fearful, have you ever heard of ' She opened her mouth to scream but not a sound came out ' this is being too fearful and shocked at the same time so as not to emit any sound. It has been noted with some attacks on females that they are so fearful they cannot scream, or even move and is a common occurrence amongst those that have been abused in thier histories and is a repeated response to historical abuse .
I recall myself about a woman who was raped, people nearby thought that she was a willing participant because she made no protests, nor did she fight back, one of the people that witnessed this was a man i knew and i had to explain to him that women can become so fearful, they do not fight back they freeze and sometimes cannot cry out because of the shock involved. He was surprised, i'm not. So look at it with that prespective and professional counsellors/psychotherapists are aware of such female responses in many cases.

[Shelley]

Oh to have that one lobbed my way and have somebody else respond before I could jump in with a smart ass answer. That hurts. Opportunities like that don't come along every day.

c.d.

I could lob something else you know!

Regards
Shelley

[Stephen Thomas]

May I come over all Sam Flynnish and say that it's a pity that the one Lawende thread has morphed into a Stride/MrBS/Schwartz one.

To get back to Lawende, I noted from Chris's fine Wiki entry on him that Lawende lived at four addresses all within less than a square mile for the last 30 odd years of his life. This area is just north of the Balls Pond Road, a major East-West artery in North London since Medieval times. It's not too far from where I live, so the other day I went off to find Lawende's houses. I'd never heard the name Mildmay in my life so I was bemused to see all the streets in this small area with the name. There's Mildmay Road, Mildmay Park, Mildmay Street, Mildmay Grove, Mildmay Place and Mildmay Avenue. I presume it used to be land owned by this Tudor fellow, a friend of Queen Elizabeth the First no less.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Mildmay

Anyway, here are some photos. Though not too far from Whitechapel you can see that this area now, as then, is rather smart showing that Mr Lawende did very well for himself and his family.

Here's 140 Mildmay Road where he lived in 1901


In 1894 he lived just down the road at #116 but this is no longer there, no doubt destroyed by bombing in WW2. The house directly over the road from where it would have been has this nice mural painted on its side


In 1911 he was at 17 Wallace Road


In 1925 he died at 16 Mildmay Park. The house is no longer there, again probably destroyed by bombing as the rest of the street is intact. These are the houses across the road from that address

[Chris]

Anyway, here are some photos. Though not too far from Whitechapel you can see that this area now, as then, is rather smart showing that Mr Lawende did very well for himself and his family.

Thanks very much for posting these. It's very interesting to see where Joseph Lawende/Lavender lived in later years.

[Sam Flynn]

Some beautiful houses there, Stephen. The cigarette salesman done well

[halomanuk]

Hi all,
I have been out of the picture on here for a while AGAIN due to personal commitments but have just heard (rather late of course ) that there is a family photo of Joseph Lawende !!
Can someone post a 'linky' or let me know where i can pick it up quickly to have a look ?

Cheers,Barry