Why is Lawende definitely Anderson's Witness?

[Shelley]

Can anyone correct me if i am wrong, about the sighting of a man with Eddowes that night she died from Lawende, Levy & Co, that the three witness, well, either one of them or all of them had some kind of Police Survailance for a period of 24 hours ( can't recall why that just comes to memory for one reason), personally i don't think they gave a correct description as there are discrepances in when she was alive, to when she was found dead, and a little mystery in itself, plus another witness gave exactly the same type of description for a man that was with Kelly and i am certain that Kelly was not a Ripper victim anyway. Can anyone help with that please?

[Mort Belfry]

The reason I ask is because I want to know if proponents of Lawende as Anderson's suspect always correspond to proponents of Kosminski/Cohen/Kaminksy as Jack the Ripper and proponents of Schwartz as Anderson's supect always correspond to proponents of Stride not being a Ripper victim and someone other than Kosminski/Cohen/Kaminsky being Jack the Ripper.

I just want to know which of Lawende and Schwartz are the most likely to have been Anderson's suspect without an ulterior motive of wanting someone specific to be Jack the Ripper.

[truebluedub]

The reason I ask is because I want to know if proponents of Lawende as Anderson's suspect always correspond to proponents of Kosminski/Cohen/Kaminksy as Jack the Ripper and proponents of Schwartz as Anderson's supect always correspond to proponents of Stride not being a Ripper victim and someone other than Kosminski/Cohen/Kaminsky being Jack the Ripper.

I just want to know which of Lawende and Schwartz are the most likely to have been Anderson's suspect without an ulterior motive of wanting someone specific to be Jack the Ripper.

I seem to remember a documentary a while ago supporting Kosminski as Jack the Ripper also supported Schwartz as Anderson's witness. I think Paul Begg was the only major ripperologist on it. They did have some people from Scotland Yard and the FBI on it. It ended with speculation that Abberline's walking stick was modeled on Kosminski.

Chris Lowe

[Christine]

The reason I ask is because I want to know if proponents of Lawende as Anderson's suspect always correspond to proponents of Kosminski/Cohen/Kaminksy as Jack the Ripper and proponents of Schwartz as Anderson's supect always correspond to proponents of Stride not being a Ripper victim and someone other than Kosminski/Cohen/Kaminsky being Jack the Ripper.

I just want to know which of Lawende and Schwartz are the most likely to have been Anderson's suspect without an ulterior motive of wanting someone specific to be Jack the Ripper.

Could you expand on this? I don't see any obvious relationship between the three points: Kosminski as Ripper, Stride as victim, and witness as Lawende vs. Schwarz, other than the obvious fact that if Stride was not a Ripper victim, then whomever Schwarz saw was probably not the Ripper.

In theory Schwarz could have seen and identified Kosminski and Kosminski was Ripper the Second, or something like that. Stride was definitely murdered, and the police would have been happy to arrest Ripper the Second and hear him confess to not killing the other C4, no matter who he turned out to be.

[Chris]

Can anyone correct me if i am wrong, about the sighting of a man with Eddowes that night she died from Lawende, Levy & Co, that the three witness, well, either one of them or all of them had some kind of Police Survailance for a period of 24 hours ( can't recall why that just comes to memory for one reason), ...

You'll find the details in the article in the wiki section that's just been referred to:

http://wiki.casebook.org/index.php/Joseph_Lawende

[Shelley]

You'll find the details in the article in the wiki section that's just been referred to:
http://wiki.casebook.org/index.php/Joseph_Lawende

Oh Bless You Chris,
It has been eating at me for a bit now, thanks for the link i'll now have a good look.
Cheers
Shelley

[caz]

...it's just that cut-throats were a common feature and that you did get your sadistic to a degree type roughians who just wanted to prey on women that were on the streets at the time to get money out of...

...JTR was intentionally after to the primary cause of cutting the women open and had a need for it, so he was highly unlikely to target a victim with a situation that would arise for a job ' Half-done ', JTR would have ensured his need to mutilate his victims, need takes presidence over everything. Stride was possibly used as a warning to others, as was Tabram and some others, so possibly just a cut-throat roughian from a gang killed Stride.

Hi Shelley,

What is your evidence for cut-throat ruffians, preying on desperately poor women in the street to get money out of them (or as a 'warning' to others ) having been 'a common feature' of life in the 1880s? Any statistics to back this up?

I thought it was almost as rare back then as it is now for women to be knifed on the street by an unknown assailant, whether it be for financial gain or no obvious motive. Rob and kill a street woman and you only rob them once and for very little reward. Leave them alive and you can rob them every time they make a bit.

Also, if the ripper's mutilation locations were not decided until each prospective victim had approached him, or been approached by him, and they found themselves in a mutually agreeable spot for - ahem - getting better acquainted, then how could he have predicted that the situation (ie resulting location and circumstances) would allow for a job well done each time, and not dictate instead a job that might only get half-done, or be dangerously bungled and therefore best not even attempted?

If the ripper's need to mutilate really had taken presidence over everything else, including his need not to be caught, he'd have been at the mercy of wherever the woman was prepared to go, and the chances are that it would not always have been the ideal place for him to start ripping. If, on the other hand, he did kill Liz, both his primary needs were well taken care of, because he quickly went on to complete his most extensive mutilation work to date and preserved his own neck in the process. So he would have more than made up for a job half-done on Liz when Kate went willingly to Mitre Square with him, not an hour later.

Love,

Caz
X

PS What is the evidence for your certainty that Mary was not the next complete ripper job?

[Shelley]

Hi Shelley,

What is your evidence for cut-throat ruffians, preying on desperately poor women in the street to get money out of them (or as a 'warning' to others ) having been 'a common feature' of life in the 1880s? Any statistics to back this up?

I thought it was almost as rare back then as it is now for women to be knifed on the street by an unknown assailant, whether it be for financial gain or no obvious motive. Rob and kill a street woman and you only rob them once and for very little reward. Leave them alive and you can rob them every time they make a bit.

Also, if the ripper's mutilation locations were not decided until each prospective victim had approached him, or been approached by him, and they found themselves in a mutually agreeable spot for - ahem - getting better acquainted, then how could he have predicted that the situation (ie resulting location and circumstances) would allow for a job well done each time, and not dictate instead a job that might only get half-done, or be dangerously bungled and therefore best not even attempted?

If the ripper's need to mutilate really had taken presidence over everything else, including his need not to be caught, he'd have been at the mercy of wherever the woman was prepared to go, and the chances are that it would not always have been the ideal place for him to start ripping. If, on the other hand, he did kill Liz, both his primary needs were well taken care of, because he quickly went on to complete his most extensive mutilation work to date and preserved his own neck in the process. So he would have more than made up for a job half-done on Liz when Kate went willingly to Mitre Square with him, not an hour later.

Love,

Caz
X

PS What is the evidence for your certainty that Mary was not the next complete ripper job?

Hi Caz,
Martha Tabram was one killing that was perhaps a gang related kill, also i recall another woman that gave a statement to police that she was attacked by four men and i think she was included in the 18 women that were listed as possible Ripper Victims, however police related this as a gang related attack and they had demanded money it was said, i think she died a few days later. I don't think people in the East-End were frightened of using a knife on others, they didn't have the technology we have today, so i don't understand your comparision of that killings were just as the same as today and rare, when you consider the 18 killings that were origianlly contributed to the Ripper plus the torso killings in London, we do not see killings to that extent today. Also in the Victorian period many a child was suffocated for insurance money, or the baby farmers killed of the poor wee ones and still kept the money that came from the mother, infact one baby farmer was convicted after she was caught red handed of disposing an infants body in the thames in the 1800's, we do not find that infants are being killed off today in that manner, so the times were certainly different and in no way can we make a comparison of killing in Victorian times to present day, it is infact rarer that a killing occurs today but not of history.
I have never been convinced that Stride was a Ripper victim because the killer had shouted out ' Lipski ' and on other posts i have explained this, that JTR did not want to draw attention to himself, as for the bit about he would have to go where the prostitute took him, this i can't believe seems as he was paying the money, not only would she have to give him his desired want for sex, if he wanted a little privacy she would have to take him to a more secluded area, also they didn't exactly want the police breathing down thier necks either these ladies of the night, she would appease enough to get her custom and the money she needed, the man that killed stride didn't need her for custom, he could just have easily approached her like JTR would and the two go elsewhere for him to to what he wanted, but this didn't happen, so i think he wanted to a little recognition by shouting out, however not too much just so others wouldn't see as much as what was about to happen, just Stride's death as an example perhaps. Also why is it that he would need Eddowes to appease a Ripper's tastes after Stride and ' Job half-done ' when it was some period of time that had passed between Nicholls and Chapman? This does not spark an a desperate need in his MO to me.

[Shelley]

Caz,
Also no-one can produce evidence on whether a woman was a JTR victim, i mean it wasn't exactly pinned to her frock saying ' I am a JTR Victim ' , as i have mentioned orignally there were 18 women suspected of being JTR 's victims, then it has been wittled down to less and we have the canocial 5 and others choose to believe there are only 3 JTR victims, however if you we to ask others where are thier evidence for the 18 being JTR victims or those that attribute 5 or 3 of the victims, all will say ' What?' How can we possibly accuratley say were's the evidence, it's what people believe and work out for themselves. I for one am one of those that believe that only 3 victims were attributed to JTR.........So where's your evidence that Stride is a JTR victim caz? And then we have an identification of JTR it was the Guy that shouted ' Lipski ' and took off Stride, so why weren't the police at that time interested much in him as the ripper caz? Also why was the police not paying that much special attention to the witness of the man who saw the Guy that cried ' Lipski ' as in the case of special attention of Lawende as a witness with Eddowes? the same night to i believe for both Stride & Eddowes, how would you explain that Caz?

[Jeff Leahy]

I think the point Shelley is that the policeman who investigated the murders and who had all the facts at hand at the time, believed that Liz Stride was a victim. As we have seen tonight in the program ‘Whitechapel’ it has become fashionable to eliminate Stride from the cannon…

However the police at the time thought she was a victim. And there is no real evidence to suggest otherwise.

Pirate

[Shelley]

I think the point Shelley is that the policeman who investigated the murders and who had all the facts at hand at the time, believed that Liz Stride was a victim. As we have seen tonight in the program ‘Whitechapel’ it has become fashionable to eliminate Stride from the cannon…

However the police at the time thought she was a victim. And there is no real evidence to suggest otherwise.

Pirate

This is quite so as you say Pirate Jack, but i wouldn't say it has become more fashionable to disregard Stride as a Ripper victim it's just that far more knowledge about these types of killer's has come to be realised, but as you say no evidence of it. However the police did take statements regarding the description of the man who shouted out ' Lipski ', but this does not rule out that they did indeed pay much more special treatment to the Witness Lawende and not Israel Schwartz, or the other guy that saw the man shout out ' Lipski '.
Murder was much more common in the Victorian period and before in history than it is today.
For Caz,
I did find a little bit more info as:
1)Annie Milwood stabs to the lower legs and lower torso ( it has only been specualted that she may have been a prostitute and supported herself from it), it was similar to Martha Tabrams wounds of 39 stabbings to the lower torso.
2) Emma Smith was the lady i mentioned in the above post who was attacked by four men, they beat, raped and viciously jabbed a blunt object into her vagina and stole money from her, She died 4 days later. It is believed by most that it was one of many whitechapel gangs which killed Emma Smith and not the Ripper.
3) Ada Wilson , a man aged about 30 yrs height of about 5ft 6 inches, sunburnt face and fair moustache forced his way into her room and demanded money, upon her refusal she was stabbed in the throat and left to die.
We still have gang culture today, however it was more common in the Victorian period of where women were attacked and or killed as warnings from gangs.

[Jeff Leahy]

Murder was much more common in the Victorian period and before in history than it is today.

I'd be careful with this assumption and would like to know where you get these satistics from?

As far as i am aware actual murder statistics are fairly consistent. I dont believe that you are any more or less likely to be attacked on the streets of Whitechapel today than you were in 1888.

Of course there are theories that the over crowded conditions of the Eastend
gave rise to a disproportionate number of serial killers (but it is a theory)

Whitechapel is as dangerous/safe today as it has ever been.

Pirate

[Supe]

Shelley,

it was similar to Martha Tabrams wounds of 39 stabbings to the lower torso.

This is not so. While deciding exactly where the upper- and lower-torso equator lies is not entirely clear, the majority of the wounds sustauned by Martha were to her neck and upper torso.

Don.

[celee]

Hi,

I do not think anyone, Besides Hutchinson, right Ben, saw the ripper. The whole lawende, Shwartz debate is confusing. I watched a documentary, that you can watch on youtube, were the experts claimed without a doubt that Shwartz was Anderson's witness. It sure looks to me that the witness was Lawende. However, I doubt that he saw the Ripper.

In my opinion the witness had to be someone who was not crediable. I mean if Anderson had an air tight witness then more Detectives would be on board with his conclusion. So, who is more reliable. Shwartz saw Sride attacked 15 minutes before her body was found. The idea that the Ripper was scared of by Deimshutz is crazy. If the man that Shwartz saw throwing Stride to the ground was indeed the Ripper then Shwartz himself scared the Ripper away. Jack would not wait around 15 minutes not knowing if Shwarts was going for help plus he would have had plenty of time to mutilate the body before D and his cart pulled up. Remember he only had 8 minutes to do away with and mutilate Eddowes, maybe. Jack would have cut Stride's throat and left straight away after being seen by Shwartz.

The idea that Shwartz saw the Ripper and Deimshutze scared Jack off when he pulled up with his cart is another one of the theories that I have a hard time understanding how a solid Detective could believe. The only way this idea works is if they do not believe Shwartz story or they believe Stride was attacked twice by two different men. Could Stride have been attacked twice just minutes apart?

Lawende claims to see Eddowes 8 minutes before her body was found. No way, the Ripper would not have had enough time to make an escape. I feel that Eddowes already laid dead in th Square when Lawende claimed to see her. I know that some one will post that the Ripper could have done the murder and make his escape. I am sure it is possible but not likely.

Who is the least crediable witness, you wrestle with that problem.

Your friend, Brad

[Nothing to see]

Again, I'm very new here and not an expert. But I visited the sites a few times last year as well as the really interesting JTR exhibition in Docklands.and I've just finished rereading Paul Begg's excellent "Jack the Ripper'. I do believe Lawende saw Jack with Kelly. I have in my mind's eye where the streets are and where the policemen's beats took them. The gaslight wasn't functioning properly and let's face it, you have the watchman in Kearley and Tonge not hearing anything. I don't know if he was deaf or not.
I believe Jack killed Stride. And I do think Diemschutz disturbed Jack. That's why he went hunting again.
Anyway, JMHO.