The Second Sighting of Mathew Packer

[Mike Covell]

I always assumed he had a front window, with shutters and a wooden shelf type of serving hatch. They used to have these in Hull until recently.

[Tom_Wescott]

He did have that, Mike. At his house. People could also go inside, but he would sell from the window. Nevertheless, he'd have a portable stall which he could take to the markets. Kinda like Diemschutz and his jewelry.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Mike Covell]

Thanks for clearing that up.

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

History has given Packer a raw deal. I tend to believe his version of events on the night of 29th September, mainly because the police went to such extraordinary lengths to cover their sorry arses following his 4th October interview in the Evening News.

Regards,

Simon

[Tom_Wescott]

An open mind is a good thing, Simon, but not if it's so open your brain falls out. Precisely what lengths did the police go to in order to 'cover their sorry asses' on account of Packer?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[anna]

Hi Tom,.....and Mike also.

I did the same as Mike,and wondered what I was reading...hold on,he has a shop...hadn't read about his stall before.

Thanks Tom......for clearing that up.

[Chris Scott]

Mike
Below is the odd story of Packer's I referred to
Reynolds Newpaper 18 Nov 1888

[robhouse]

In the Echo, October 17:

An Echo reporter called this afternoon upon Mr. Packer, the Berner-street fruiterer, where the murderer bought the grapes for Elizabeth Stride. It now appears that the man was known by Mr. Packer, who positively asserted, "I had seen him in this district several times before, and if you ask me where he lives I can tell you within a little. He lodges not a great way from the house where Lipski, who was hanged for poisoning a woman, lived." "How many times have you seen him?" was asked Mr. Packer. "About twenty; and I have not seen him since the murder."

Then on Oct 20, in the Echo (this was possibly related to the Batty Street lodger story):

The police called on Mr. Packer, of 44, Berner-street, yesterday morning; and later on an Echo reporter also saw him as to what had transpired. Mr. Packer was rather reticent; but, when asked his opinion as to where the murderer lodged - for he had seen him several times before the fatal night - remarked, "In the next street." It is considered he is not far wrong in his conjecture; but the police do not deem it prudent to say what steps are being taken in the matter.

The Second sighting story was, I believe, first reported in the Echo, on October 31:

Mr. Matthew Packer, who keeps a fruit shop next to the gate-way where the Berner-street murder was committed, has stated to a reporter that this last night or two he has felt alarmed owing to his having seen a man exactly like the one who bought the grapes off him for the unfortunate murdered woman Elizabeth Stride, a short time before the murder was committed. Last Saturday night, he says, he was standing in the Commercial-road when he caught sight of the man staring at him. After passing and repassing him several times the man came behind him, looking menacingly at him. He got frightened, drew a shoe-black's attention to the fellow, who then disappeared. He declares that he kept on the look-out for a policeman; but none came, and the strange visitor got away in a tram. Such is the story a Correspondent sends. It seems improbable.

Rob H

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Rob

http://www.casebook.org/witnesses/w/Matthew_Packer.html

At the end of this thread on Packer it claims that he was also attacked by a man he claimed to be JtR in 1889? About the time of the Pinchin Street torso finding. Do you know anything about the source of that story?

Pirate

[robhouse]

Hi jeff,

I dont know anything about that other incident. I am a bit confused as to when exactly this Second sighting supposedly took place. The Echo reported it on Oct 31, but according to the Packer link you sent me, "Packer returned to the news again when on 27th October." But the source for that is given as The Illustrated Police News, 10th November 1888, which stated Packer "stated on Wednesday..." etc etc. I am just confused where this Oct 27 date comes from.

Anyways, it is not important. But maybe there is an earlier report of the incident than the Echo Oct 30.

RH

[gracie]

1861 census

Name Estimated Birth Year Birthplace Relationship Civil Parish County/Island

Ann Packer 1837 St Luke, Middlesex, England Wife Bethnal Green Middlesex
Elizabeth Packer 1857 Bethnal Green Daughter Bethnal Green Middlesex
Lusia Packer 1861 Bethnal Green Daughter Bethnal Green Middlesex
Mathew Packer 1828 Whitechapel Head Bethnal Green Middlesex
Thos Packer 1854 Spitalfields Son Bethnal Green Middlesex

We do not have any family stories of the 'Ripper' incident, although, interestingly, the direct descendants of his daughter, Elizabeth, in Australia do know of this episode.
So sorry folks...Matthews son was Thomas.......Gracie.

[Tom_Wescott]

I wonder if the following two press reports are related?

OCT. 31st, 1888 (from The Echo)

Mr. Matthew Packer, who keeps a fruit shop next to the gate-way where the Berner-street murder was committed, has stated to a reporter that this last night or two he has felt alarmed owing to his having seen a man exactly like the one who bought the grapes off him for the unfortunate murdered woman Elizabeth Stride, a short time before the murder was committed. Last Saturday night, he says, he was standing in the Commercial-road when he caught sight of the man staring at him. After passing and repassing him several times the man came behind him, looking menacingly at him. He got frightened, drew a shoe-black's attention to the fellow, who then disappeared. He declares that he kept on the look-out for a policeman; but none came, and the strange visitor got away in a tram. Such is the story a Correspondent sends. It seems improbable.

OCT. 29th, 1888 (from The Echo)

The various districts are being patrolled by extra constables, and their zeal has lead them into several excesses, notably, an arrest of three young men made on Thursday night in Berner-street. The police, according to a morning contemporary, have so much in mind the vague stories of an American perpetrator of the dastardly crimes that any person in a wide-a-wake or soft felt becomes an object of suspicion. A comic singer was unfortunate enough during a professional visit on Thursday to Whitechapel to wear one of these hats; and when during the interval he and two friends strolled round the neighbourhood, to view the scene of the Berner-street tragedy, they were promptly denounced by some too quick-sighted citizen and marched off by the police. It is only due to the latter to say they were detained but a very short time, sufficient to test the truth of their statement.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Debra A]

Hi Rob

http://www.casebook.org/witnesses/w/Matthew_Packer.html

At the end of this thread on Packer it claims that he was also attacked by a man he claimed to be JtR in 1889? About the time of the Pinchin Street torso finding. Do you know anything about the source of that story?

Pirate

I mentioned this incident in post #2 to this thread and as there is a wiki link to this thread from the Packer page,and someone has asked me the source of this particular Packer story, here is one of them, there are several other newspapers carrying the same story in Sept. 89.
Packer didn't claim he was attacked by a man he claimed to be JTR, he was supposedly knocked off his doorstep by someone taunting him about knowing JTR's address, it's unclear when this occured.

The Sheffield and Rotherham Independent Sept. 14 1889

[Debra A]

Regarding the story of Packer being knocked over and spending 3 weeks in the London hospital as mentioned in the previous news article;
Rob Clack has checked the London Hospital admission and discharge records from Nov 9th 1888 to the end of January 89 and then from June 89 to mid Sept. 1889 (when the story appeared in the papers) and found no mention of Packer in the records for those periods.
Many thanks to Rob for looking at the records.