Caroline Maxwell - where did she live?

[Chris Scott]

In the reported inquest testimony of Kelly, Caroline Maxwell's address is given as follows:-
Caroline Maxewell, 14, Dorset-street
However, in the interview below, which I don't remember seeing before, Maxwell states that she and her husband lived at 26 Dorset Street, i.e. in the same building as Kelly.
I am not quite sure of the full meaning of her statement regarding Barnett:
"I didn't know then that she had separated from the man she had been living with, and I thought he had been 'paying' her."
Is this an acknowledgement that Maxwell knew she was an "unfortunate"? If so, what is she implying about Barnett's relationship with her?
Chris

Birmingham Daily Post
12 November 1888

[Simon Wood]

Hi Chris,

Dorset Street's properties were numbered consecutively along the south [Lodging House] side from west to east (1-20) and back along the north [Millers Court] side from east to west (21-39).

Maxwell said she lived "next door". Next door to what?

So I think it's poor punctuation, and the sentence should read—

Mrs Maxwell, the wife of the deputy of a lodging house in Dorset Street ("I assist my husband in his duties, but we live next door") situate just opposite the court where Mary Kelly lived at 26 Dorset Street, said to a Central News reporter . . . ."

Regards,

Simon

[Stephen Thomas]

Yes Simon

I think Maxwell is saying that her husband worked as a deputy manager at Crossinghams across Dorset Street from the court and that she and he lived next door to Crossinghams.

[sdreid]

So what are "the horrors"? I always thought it was what we used to call the "Hiram Walker flu" around here. If that was the case though then why would someone advise one with that affliction to drink even more?

[anna]

Hi Stan,
It's an old East End saying,that was still in use up to the 50's on a regular basis....it is referred to as "having surcumed to the horrors of drink"...having allowed the"demon" drink,to get you drunk.

My nan used to use it to my grandad,when he rolled in blind drunk,having somehow found his way back from the pub....and he used to try to sneak in,when my nan was in the kitchen and he knew she couldn't see him in the hall...or so he thought!!!!!!..she didn't have to see him,believe me...you could smell the staggering brewery from miles off. he was quite a character....she'd shout "Fred.....You got the horrors???"
(I used to laugh as a kid,as I'd already run out to the hall as he put his key in the lock....clumsily)....as he used to go without saying a word.

Best Regards,
ANNA.

[claire]

Yep, that's the one, anna! 'Succumbed to the horrors of drink'...that's priceless As for why someone would recommend a quick beer: it's the good old hair of the dog, Stan. In the absence of the McHangover Cure, getting a bit bladdered all over again is the best approach to a raging headache

[sdreid]

Yes, that's what I thought it was, that is, the "Hiram Walker flu". I always thought "hair of the dog" was for the headache. It seems to me that drinking more would only make you sicker to your stomach if that was your problem. Whatever, I haven't ever tried it and don't plan to. The world has enough drunks already.

[The Good Michael]

Stan

That hair of the dog thing seems to work for alcoholics, but not for anyone else. I had a boss once when I was young who would drink until he passed out, and then would take a drink when he woke up to feel better. One suspects it was about getting the alcohol level up again. He's one reason I don't drink much. We (my friends and I) would see him do this on occasion when we had all-night card games. He would just conk out.

Cheers,

Mike

[alex]

Evening All

The following is the virtually verbatim report that appeared in the Daily Telegraph, 12th Nov.1888:

“Mrs. Maxwell, who lives at 14, Dorset-street, but who assists her husband in the care of a common lodging house opposite Miller-court, says: “We stay up all night, and yesterday (Friday) as I was going home, carrying my lantern and other things with me, I saw the woman Kelly standing at the entrance of the court. It was then half-past eight, and as it was unusual for her to be seen about at that hour, I said to her, ‘Hallo! what are you doing up so early?’ She said, ‘Oh, I’m very bad this morning. I have had the horrors. I have been drinking so much lately.’ I said to her, ‘Why don’t you go and have half a pint of beer. It will put you right.’ She replied, ‘I’ve just had one, but I’m so bad I couldn’t keep it down.’ I didn’t know then that she had separated from the man she had been living with, and I thought he had been ‘paying’ her. I then went out in the direction of Bishopsgate to do some errands, and on my return I saw Kelly standing outside the public-house talking to a man. That was the last I saw of her.””

The almost identical wording in different newspapers on the same day seems to suggest that this report possibly originated from a news agency; although the differing description of Maxwell’s residence in the Birmingham Daily Post does seem a little disconcerting.

However, given the consistency of address, given as 14 Dorset St., in both her statement to police on 9th Nov. 1888 and at the inquest on 12th Nov. 1888, as well as in main newspaper reports, I feel 14 Dorset St. is probably a pretty safe bet as the actual residence of Caroline Maxwell

Best Wishes
alex chisholm

[Celesta]

Part of the hangover experience for heavy drinkers is the withdrawal. The 'hair of the dog' is, as the Good Mike suggests, to get the alcohol-stream back up. To get a fix in other words.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
Anna mention that the term 'The horrors of drink' derived from a old East End saying.
This being the case, and Mjk was reported to be from Wales then Ireland, I wondered if that particular remark would have been common in those parts.?
I appreciate that Mary may have inherited that expression over the previous three years, but it could also indicate that she was more not telling the truth about the recent past.
Regards Richard.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi,
Anna mention that the term 'The horrors of drink' derived from a old East End saying.

It wasn't, Rich. The phrase crops up frequently in novels, temperance pamphlets and non-fiction books during the 19th Century, in Britain as well as America.

It was certainly not peculiar to the vocabulary of the East End working class, as this line of dialogue from the distinctly posh Anthony Trollope's The Claverings (1867) shows - spoken as it is by Lady Ongar: “He brought himself to such a state that nothing but brandy would keep him alive, and in which brandy was sure to kill him - and it did kill him. Did you ever hear of the horrors of drink?”

[Stephen Thomas]

The phrase crops up frequently in novels, temperance pamphlets and non-fiction books during the 19th Century, in Britain as well as America.

Hi Sam

Too true. Did you hear the one about the vicar and the drunk, who tells the vicar that he can't pass a pub without going in. The vicar tells him that when he passes a pub he should say to himself 'Get thee behind me Satan'. The next time the vicar sees the man he's dead drunk and he asks him if he said 'Get thee behind me Satan' The man says 'Yes, and he got behind me and kicked me in'.

Best wishes

p.s. What's American for 'vicar'?

[Sam Flynn]

p.s. What's American for 'vicar'?

... 'viautomobile'