Mrs Long

[DVV]

Hi all,

First, I'm a little bit lost with Elizabeth Long.

1- On September 8, was she going to the market for work?

2- Was she the wife of a park keeper, the wife of a cart minder, or was she herself working as a cart minder?

3- Where was she living? Church Row (3 or 198?)? Church Street - quite another area - ?

Second, I was intriguing by her statement - the fact that she described the man as about 40 years old, and looking like a foreigner. That seems to me a direct influence of The Star, 4 September, about Leather Apron (38/40 years old Jew).
What do you think?

Amitiés,
David

[DVV]

sorry for "intriguing"!

[Ben]

the fact that she described the man as about 40 years old, and looking like a foreigner. That seems to me a direct influence of The Star, 4 September, about Leather Apron (38/40 years old Jew).

Quite possibly, David.

Her description of a "40s foreigner" with a dark complexion is also at odds with her claim to have seen the suspect's back, not his face. If she didn't see his face or mention a "foreign" sounding accent, her claim to have seen a dark complexioned foreginer in his 40s carries no weight at all.

Best regards,
Ben

[Jon Guy]

Hi all,

First, I'm a little bit lost with Elizabeth Long.

1- On September 8, was she going to the market for work?

2- Was she the wife of a park keeper, the wife of a cart minder, or was she herself working as a cart minder?

3- Where was she living? Church Row (3 or 198?)? Church Street - quite another area - ?

Second, I was intriguing by her statement - the fact that she described the man as about 40 years old, and looking like a foreigner. That seems to me a direct influence of The Star, 4 September, about Leather Apron (38/40 years old Jew).
What do you think?

Amitiés,
David

David

Mrs Long was indeed walking to work at Spitalfields Market.

I have seen James Long listed as both a park keeper and cart minder.

Recent observations seem to show Long living in Church Row Bethnal Green.
Which ties in with the direction she was taking through Hanbury St, and the timing puts her at No29 at around 15.15, as it would take fifteen minutes to walk from Bethnal Green.

I certainly believe her description of a "foreigner" was influenced by the press and general feeling of the locality.Although, he may have appreared dark, and over forty, the term foreigner was subconciously planted in her mind, if you get my drift.

[DVV]

Hi Jon Guy, and thanks,
so she is more likely to live in Bethnal Green than Whitechapel? Indeed, Swanson, in his 19 September's report, gave her address as Church Street.
But herself, at the inquest, clearly said: "Church Row, Whitechapel"...

As to the question of the suspect's complexion, I agree with you, but as pointed out by Ben and I, we may have more than that. How could she estimate his age as around 40? Baxter asked her: "Was he a man or a boy?"
She could have simply answered "a man", especially because she did not see the man's face. So why "40" ("as far as I could tell", she added)?
That's what makes a possible link with Pizer/Leather Apron and the Star, 4 September.

One last detail about her work: Mrs Long introduced herself as the wife of a park keeper at the inquest (according to the Times)... Do that mean that she used to help her husband? But then, why was she walking alone that morning?

Amitiés,
David

[Dan Norder]

It should also be pointed out that Long didn't make her statement until a while after the murder. Emily Walter had already been interviewed by the papers as having seen a suspicious man earlier in the night in that exact same location who had frightened her. The police also were looking for men meeting this description for questioning... one that included several points (age, foreign, etc.) that Long could very well have copied, either intentionally or unintentionally, before she made her statement.

Most people don't even know about Walter so would miss the possible connection there. It's just another one of those parts of the case that is woefully underrepresented in most books.

[DVV]

Thanks a lot Dan, it's interesting and offers another reasonable explanation of Mrs Long's statement.
What about Mrs Long's occupation and address? Has it been already established?

Amitiés,
David

[Jon Guy]

What about Mrs Long's occupation and address? Has it been already established?

Hello David

Regarding Mrs Long`s occupation, I believe that if she was due at Spitalfields market at 05.30am, like John Richardson,it was for reasons of employment.

According to "Scotland Yard Investigates", there was a Mr Long,aged 72 yrs, listed at 31 Church Row,St Matthews, Bethnal Green. It has not been established, but it looks like she and her husband, James, were living with his parents.

We do know she left her house at 05.00 am and it is only about fifteen minutes to the Market.

Hope this helps.

[DVV]

Of course this helps, Jon, many thanks.
It also indicates that she heard the Black Eagle clock at a quarter past five, which solves the timing's problem between her testimony and Cadosch's.
However, I don't understand how so many press reports could give "Church Row, Whitechapel" - in her own words - as her address at the time of the inquest.
Could have Mr and Mrs Long lived sometimes in Whitechapel, sometimes in Bethnal Green? Or are journalists' mistakes a more likely explanation, in your opinion?

Amitiés,
David

[Elias]

If she didn't see his face or mention a "foreign" sounding accent

Yeah, I always wonder when reading about Mrs Long why no-one asked about the accent the man she saw spoke in. Whether she was influenced in terms of description or not, she is one of the most likely people to have seen Jack, and asking her what accent the man spoke in would've at least gone some way to knowing whether he was local or not.

On the same point from a different angle, is there a chance the reason she described him as foreign was because she heard him speak in a foreign accent, and the references to this have been lost over the course of time?

[Ben]

Hi Elias,

My guess is that there'd be an extant record of her identifying the suspect's accent as foreign-sounding if "foreign" it was. More likely, she never specified a foreign accent because she didn't hear one, and the whole "looked like a foreigner" observation was brought about by a combination of the "Leather Apron" factor and the fact that Hanbury Street was home to many Jewish tradesman. The fact that Mrs. Long was quick to reinforce the whole "foreigner" angle (again) when the coroner was clearly asking about the man's likely occupation is a telling indicator in this regard.

That's not to say there's no value in her statement; only that it ought to be limited to height and dress. That's really all she could have noticed.

Best regards,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

is there a chance the reason she described him as foreign was because she heard him speak in a foreign accent, and the references to this have been lost over the course of time?

Given that all she heard him say was "Will you?", she didn't have too much material on which to do a "trace". That said, if what she heard came out as "Vill you?" then it might explain in part her attribution of foreignness to the stranger.

[fido]

Splendid research having untangled Lechmere-Cross, I wonder whether any of the genealogically or directory-skilled researchers could explain why Mrs Lkong was also Mrs Darrell.
Martin F

[BinxiiPop]

Was she a prostitute?

She's not on Google or Wikipedia, and I need to know for GCSE coursework?

[Robert]

As far as I'm aware, there is no evidence that she was a prostitute.