Mrs Long

[Mitch Rowe]

If we had evidence that Annie would actually hang out in front of 29 Hanbury trying to pick up customers then I could give Longs testimony some teeth. Or if we knew for sure those streets were mostly empty at that time. I think we have the opposite. I think we have plenty of stories telling us the streets were busy.

Now if Long were to have seen two people in the hallway of 29 Hanbury through the open front door thats something slightly different. If no one ever comes forward claiming they were the couple then there is a rat. But on the street? Theres too much traffic.

[Supe]

Mitch,

It would also seem instructive, apart from the debate about her description, that Mrs. Long said "It was not an unusual thing to see men and women talking together at that hour in that locality." If Long is to be believed at all, it would seem she had little reason to lie about that statement.

And, if couples did seem to congregate there it is doubtful the reason was the aroma of a cats meat shop "sang" love's sweet song to them. Rather, it suggests they gathered there because of the open passage to the backyard that offered a somewhat private trysting place well known to women on the game. It would further suggest, if they were there at the hour she claimed that there was more of a "live and let live" attitude toward couples' coupling than the residents of 29 Hanbury wanted to admit.

Don.

[Mitch Rowe]

Its too bad because there is so much more we could have done with these witnesses today. Sequential line-ups. Recreation of events. Identikits. And polygraphs to name a few.

What we actually have in most cases is a name appearing and then... We never hear from them again.

[Jez]

But at the same time our modern sophistication - so-called - shouldn't preclude the idea that the Victorian police were clueless about interviewing techniques and gathering statements from eye witnesses. Rather than just a sounding board for every crank who came to them with "evidence", they undouptedly set traps for interviewees and were very adroit at spotting a mischevious witness.
Re-writing history is very easy if you make the assumption that the contemporary police were complete idiots.

[Ben]

Not really sure where the idea of "mischevious" witnesses fit into this particular equation, though, Jez. Nobody's suggested that Mrs. Long lied. It has only been observed that her alleged vantage point facillitated the observation of some, if not all, of the visual components she claimed to have seen. Unfortunately, it wasn't as easy as all that to spot a bogus witness. Modern police forces continue to be duped by them from time to time, and it needn't be reflective of any "idiocy" on their part.

[Roy Corduroy]

Not only the description, but the underlying circumstances of the witness encounter are questioned by some. Where was Annie Chapman and what was she doing from a little before 2 am, when she left her lodgings, until 5:30 when this sighting was made. Yet it was only a five minute walk. That is a burning question. How did it take 3 1/2 hours for this to unfold?

Roy

[Mascara & Paranoia]

Long (and Cadosche) aren't really credible 'witnesses'. There's more stuff surrounding their claims and that says their accounts are fabrications than either of them having seen or heard anything that truly happened. And I doubt Jack would've ripped Annie at dawn; he was quick and cautious, not Houdini. It's a little convenient and dare I say suss that Cadosche heard the 'no' and then 5 minutes later heard something allegedly fall against the fence when he went back out into the yard to alleviate himself. Long is even more likely to have fabricated her characters too, assuming the people she saw weren't two completely separate individuals from Jack and Annie. I can understand the age being determined from behind as the man's hair may have been grey, but his ethnicity? Unless she saw his hands and they weren't Caucasian or heard traces of an accent, I really don't get how she could've leaped to the foreign conclusion. As for the 'shabby genteel' appearance, that was probably the norm for a good few people back in those days.

[Supe]

M&P,

I really don't get how she could've leaped to the foreign conclusion.

You miss the point I tried to make--it is unimportant what we may think today because crime literature is rife with people in the LVP and later describing others as "foreign looking" without much if anything upon which to base that conclusion. It was a terminology they understood and the majority of their fellow citizens understood. They may well have been inaccurate, but making that snap-decision as to ethnicity/nationality need not be seen as evidence of mendacity on Mrs. Long's part.


And I doubt Jack would've ripped Annie at dawn; he was quick and cautious, not Houdini.

The glib reply is that you were not Jack, but it remains true. To impose our thoughts, cautions or fears on Jack is a snare that can lead nowhere. I trust that Jack did not think like any of us and for that matter, Victoeians as a whole did not think as we do today.

Don.

[perrymason]

Just checking to see if people are all aware that Mrs Longs value is in her witnessing Annie...not her companion. She saw Annie's face....she did not get a good look at him. The only thing that makes him as suspect is the time of her sighting...as is the case of Lawendes Sailor Man at 1:35am the morning of the Double Event.

And my guess is that either she or Cadosche or both were'nt precisely correct in that respect.

Best regards all.

[Mitch Rowe]

Just checking to see if people are all aware that Mrs Longs value is in her witnessing Annie...not her companion. She saw Annie's face....she did not get a good look at him. The only thing that makes him as suspect is the time of her sighting...as is the case of Lawendes Sailor Man at 1:35am the morning of the Double Event.

And my guess is that either she or Cadosche or both were'nt precisely correct in that respect.

Best regards all.

And we even have to be careful of Longs ID of Annie. Police were supposed to show her a series of pictures. Each one looking like Annie but only one that is Annie. What they did was showed her Annies body asking her if this was the woman she saw. Stuff like that is why alot of the witnesses cant be trusted.

Here is a dissertation I found wich explains it better than I could:

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-cozart.html