Sailor-like

[c.d.]

What exactly did Lawende mean when he described the man he saw talking to Kate as being sailor-like? Was it simply that his clothes gave the appearance that he might be a sailor, particularly the red neckerchief and hat, or did he mean his physical appearance and manner? Was he describing a man physically well built? Perhaps with broad shoulders?

Also note that he described the man as having a fair complexion. Would not a sailor look more weather beaten and maybe darker?

My apologies if I am treading on the was Jack a sailor thread but I think this is a separate question worthy of its own thread.

c.d.

[DVV]

What exactly did Lawende mean when he described the man he saw talking to Kate as being sailor-like? Was it simply that his clothes gave the appearance that he might be a sailor, particularly the red neckerchief and hat, or did he mean his physical appearance and manner? Was he describing a man physically well built? Perhaps with broad shoulders?

Also note that he described the man as having a fair complexion. Would not a sailor look more weather beaten and maybe darker?

My apologies if I am treading on the was Jack a sailor thread but I think this is a separate question worthy of its own thread.

c.d.

Very interesting points and questions, cd.
I personnally don't think the "sailor-like" appearance was simply due to the clothes and cap. Just notice Marshall's testimony: he said the man he saw wore a cape that a sailor would wear. Then, when asked if the man looked like a sailor, he definitely answered "No".
As to the complexion, I'm afraid we can't draw no conclusion...
Anyway, good day for sailors today (I confess I enjoy it!)

Amitiés,
David

[Stephen Thomas]

There's an interesting snippet in an 1890s newspaper article about Lawende being called to check out Sadler regarding the Coles murder in which the suspect seen by Lawende in 1888 is said to have been wearing a 'pea jacket' ie the short double breasted coat that used to be worn by sailors known today, at least in Britain, as a 'reefer jacket'. Whether this was a journalist's invention or additional information supplied by Lawende I know not, but this particular jacket would certainly have have identified the wearer as a seafaring person.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pea_coat

[Graham]

Sorry, but I can't find any reference to Lawende's describing the man he saw as being 'like a sailor'. Where did this come from?

Cheers,

Graham

[DVV]

Hi Graham,
Police Gazette, 19 October 1888.
Hope that answers your question...

Amitiés,
David

[FrankO]

Hi Graham,

In addition to David's post, it's also in a summary report of 19 October by Swanson: 'appearance of a sailor.'

Interestingly, c.d., it also says that the man was of 'medium built', which I wouldn't directly connect with broad shoulders. But of course, there's always the question of (in)accuracy of witness descriptions to consider...


All the best,
Frank

[Sam Flynn]

In addition to David's post, it's also in a summary report of 19 October by Swanson: 'appearance of a sailor.'

...the context of which is interesting. Swanson writes "reddish handkerchief tied in knot around neck, appearance of a sailor". So, did he mean only that the handkerchief was worn as a sailor might wear one, or that the man's entire gestalt was sailor-like?

[Dan Norder]

Well, I wouldn't think it'd be possible for just part of his gestalt to be anything.

[Sam Flynn]

True, Dan - that was a bit of a paradoxical coinage on my behalf. Mea culpa.

[Normy]

Hi all
Sailor-like!
Wasn't someone else (maybe the dreaded H) described as having a 'military appearence'?
Do you think the two could be associated?


Cheers

[perrymason]

Hi all
Sailor-like!
Wasn't someone else (maybe the dreaded H) described as having a 'military appearence'?
Do you think the two could be associated?


Cheers

I think the Sailor look might be incompatible with Military men Normy....many Seamen were not in uniforms, but in shabby well worn clothing....the lifestyle didnt get them shopping for clothes often ....I think in this case its the cap and neckerchief that prompted the term...if you see any art from the period, with merchant ships and seamen, you'll see scarves.

Also found in formal uniforms like for HRH's Navy or the like, but those would be worn when the uniforms were worn...this man wasnt wearing one.

Cheers Normy

[Ben]

I think the Sailor look might be incompatible with Military men Normy

But it could be perfectly compatible with a "military appearance", Mike.

Ted Stanley was also described as having a military appearance, but I'm quite sure it had nothing to do him having swanned around Crossingham's in uniform! Such a description would have more to do with stature than clothing, I'd imagine.

All the best,
Ben

[perrymason]

But it could be perfectly compatible with a "military appearance", Mike.

Ted Stanley was also described as having a military appearance, but I'm quite sure it had nothing to do him having swanned around Crossingham's in uniform! Such a description would have more to do with stature than clothing, I'd imagine.

All the best,
Ben

Im sure that could be the case Ben, like shined boots, or a hairstyle, or the demeanor as you say, standing very erect.....but without some indicator like the above, and in the absence of anything that suggests a military man as far as clothing goes, Sailor Man can hardly be described as likely an active military naval man.

All the best Ben.

[Supe]

Ben,

I have always believed that looking for a military appearance in this instance is a snare. Remember, in that part of town the most commonly seen "sailor"--by far--would be a merchant seaman, not a member of the Royal Navy. I have always taken the phrase to mean a pea coat and a Zorba cap.
Don.

[Ben]

Good point, Don.

What interests me most of all is that the men who were described as having a "military appearance" - Ted Stanley, George Hutchinson - were doss-house dwellers from the immediate vicinity of the murders with ostensibly no military garb to speak of.

Best regards,
Ben