Kennedy and Lewis

[Michael W Richards]

Didn't mean to subvert the thread Sam for more than a mo, for me its just a matter of consistency and continuity. When I see a post that contains something that is being mentioned as fact and I know its not,...well......

I mentioned the fact that in the 2 statements the relationship with the Keylers is quite different, one claims its her parents she is staying with, the other says it was at The Keylers. I find that contradictory position pretty compelling evidence that unless they both went to the same room in the courtyard that night, then one isn't telling the truth.

[Sam Flynn]

I find that contradictory position pretty compelling evidence that unless they both went to the same room in the courtyard that night, then one isn't telling the truth.

I'd agree, and the possibility that others (Paumier and Roney among them, Hutchinson too perhaps) had been bitten by the "chatty mysterious man with a bag" meme would only add weight to the idea that some folk were jumping on the bandwagon.

[Wickerman]

... I find that contradictory position pretty compelling evidence that unless they both went to the same room in the courtyard that night, then one isn't telling the truth.

It's compelling that two different women are involved. And, as it was Lewis who was in court, and the summons for her to appear was normally hand delivered to the home address of the witness, not to No.2 Millers Court, then the address in Great Pearl Street must the Lewis's real address.

Yet, the Evening News interviewed a Mr Gallagher (Keyler?) at No.2 in the court who confirmed that his daughter, a Mrs Kennedy, came home late.

Lewis & Kennedy - two different women.

[Sam Flynn]

It's compelling that two different women are involved. And, as it was Lewis who was in court, and the summons for her to appear was normally hand delivered to the home address of the witness, not to No.2 Millers Court, then the address in Great Pearl Street must the Lewis's real address.

Yet, the Evening News interviewed a Mr Gallagher (Keyler?) at No.2 in the court who confirmed that his daughter, a Mrs Kennedy, came home late.

Lewis & Kennedy - two different women.

In the following excerpt from the Daily News, where does Mr "Gallagher" confirm that his daughter was "Mrs Kennedy"? It's not even claimed that he was interviewed directly, and might easily be a third- or fourth-hand piece of misheard gossip:

Immediately opposite the house in which Mary Jane Kelly was murdered is a tenement occupied by an Irishman, named Gallagher, and his family. On Thursday night Gallagher and his wife retired to rest at a fairly early hour. Their married daughter, a woman named Mrs. Kennedy, came home, however, at a late hour (Daily News, 10th Nov 1888)

That, plus the rest of the article (which should repay close reading) doesn't look particularly trustworthy to me, nor does it appear to be first-hand testimony. Unlike this separate section of the same report, which purports to be quoting someone directly; well, unlike the Gallagher/Kennedy story, it at least contains quotation marks:

"What do you do? What makes people pounce on you?" "Dat is ze zing," said the unlucky fellow spreading the palms of his hands and shrugging his shoulders. "Zat is what I like to know. Why do zey?" He had given a false name at his lodging house, but that, he tried to explain, was because "it eez not grand to leave in a lodging house."

Yes, I'm sure that someone zed precisely zat.

[Wickerman]

In the following excerpt from the Daily News, where does Mr "Gallagher" confirm that his daughter was "Mrs Kennedy"? It's not even claimed that he was interviewed directly, and might easily be a third- or fourth-hand piece of misheard gossip:

Immediately opposite the house in which Mary Jane Kelly was murdered is a tenement occupied by an Irishman, named Gallagher, and his family. On Thursday night Gallagher and his wife retired to rest at a fairly early hour. Their married daughter, a woman named Mrs. Kennedy, came home, however, at a late hour (Daily News, 10th Nov 1888)

You asked where does Gallagher make this claim, then you post the article that provides the answer.
I guess I'm not understanding your question.

[Simon Wood]

Why was Sarah Lewis interviewed by the police on 9th November 1888, but not Mrs Kennedy?

[Sam Flynn]

You asked where does Gallagher make this claim, then you post the article that provides the answer.
I guess I'm not understanding your question.

Hello Jon

It doesn't say that "Gallagher" was interviewed, and it doesn't say that he confirmed "Kennedy" was his daughter, either. There's nothing in that article that couldn't have come from a reporter (mis)hearing a second-hand story on the jungle grapevine.

[Wickerman]

Why was Sarah Lewis interviewed by the police on 9th November 1888, but not Mrs Kennedy?

She was....

"Detective-Inspector Abberline has interviewed a girl named Kennedy, who states that about half-past 3 on the morning of the murder she went to her parent's house, which is opposite the room occupied by Mary Jane Kelly, and on reaching the court she saw a woman talking to two men. Shortly afterwards, when inside her father's house she heard a cry of "Murder" in a woman's voice, and she alleges the sound came from the direction of Kelly's room."

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/times/18881112.html

[Sam Flynn]

Isn't this the only source we have for Abberline interviewing "Kennedy"? It's quite possible that this was a mistake. There's nothing there which couldn't have been gleaned from the (single) Press Agency report of the 10th which formed the basis of the stories obout "Kennedy" in the Star, Evening/Daily News and Morning Advertiser.

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon

It doesn't say that "Gallagher" was interviewed, and it doesn't say that he confirmed "Kennedy" was his daughter, either. There's nothing in that article that couldn't have come from a reporter (mis)hearing a second-hand story on the jungle grapevine.

Hi Gareth.

Both the Evening News and the Press Association seem to have made the same mistake then?
All subsequent reports on Kennedy make reference to her living a Millers Court regardless what the content of their article.

Not easy to explain how so many journalists made the same mistake.
Isn't it easier to just accept what we read than trying to find different reasons to explain each report?

Another brief article which can only refer to Kennedy, without actually naming her places her at the same address in the court.

"Another tale of a neighbour will also be told to the coroner, who will no doubt closely inquire into its veracity. A woman, whose parents live in Miller's-court, in the house opposite the room where the tragedy took place, declares that at three o'clock on Friday morning she entered Dorset-street on her way home, and she noticed three persons at the corner of the street, near the Britannia Public-house."
Daily Telegraph, 12 Nov. 1888 pg.5

This cannot refer to Sarah Lewis as she gave her address at Great Pearl St. on her initial police statement to Abberline while being interviewed in Millers Court on Friday.
We know Great Pearl St. had to be her true address because the clerk of the court uses this address on the witness statement to send out the summons to appear in court.

The question that really needs to be addressed is to explain the reason we should not believe that Kennedy lived where reports say she lived.
It's not like there is any conflict or contradiction involved.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Gareth.

Both the Evening News and the Press Association seem to have made the same mistake then?

All it takes is for one PA report to have been faulty, and any reportage based on it, either wholly or in part, is apt to inherit the same faults. Also, as previously intimated, I'm not impressed with that Evening News report.

"Mrs. Kennedy picked up the bag, whereupon the stranger exclaimed that he was not Jack the Ripper. Just then the woman noticed the unnatural glare of the man's eyes, and instinctively fled from the spot leaving him behind."

... a nice bit of purple prose, but that's hardly conducive to reliable reportage.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Gareth.

Both the Evening News and the Press Association seem to have made the same mistake then?
All subsequent reports on Kennedy make reference to her living a Millers Court regardless what the content of their article.

Not easy to explain how so many journalists made the same mistake.
Isn't it easier to just accept what we read than trying to find different reasons to explain each report?

Another brief article which can only refer to Kennedy, without actually naming her places her at the same address in the court.

"Another tale of a neighbour will also be told to the coroner, who will no doubt closely inquire into its veracity. A woman, whose parents live in Miller's-court, in the house opposite the room where the tragedy took place, declares that at three o'clock on Friday morning she entered Dorset-street on her way home, and she noticed three persons at the corner of the street, near the Britannia Public-house."
Daily Telegraph, 12 Nov. 1888 pg.5

This cannot refer to Sarah Lewis as she gave her address at Great Pearl St. on her initial police statement to Abberline while being interviewed in Millers Court on Friday.
We know Great Pearl St. had to be her true address because the clerk of the court uses this address on the witness statement to send out the summons to appear in court.

The question that really needs to be addressed is to explain the reason we should not believe that Kennedy lived where reports say she lived.
It's not like there is any conflict or contradiction involved.

hi wick
how old were the keylers?


Im thinking wouldn't it be more natural for lewis to be friends with there daughter, who would be closer to her age, than an older couple? and therefor more reasonable she would go to a younger friends place after a spat with her man?

[Trevor Marriott]

She was....

"Detective-Inspector Abberline has interviewed a girl named Kennedy, who states that about half-past 3 on the morning of the murder she went to her parent's house, which is opposite the room occupied by Mary Jane Kelly, and on reaching the court she saw a woman talking to two men. Shortly afterwards, when inside her father's house she heard a cry of "Murder" in a woman's voice, and she alleges the sound came from the direction of Kelly's room."
http://www.casebook.org/press_report.../18881112.html

This supposed cry of Oh murder is another red herring, which researchers are to keen to rely upon in the grand scheme of things.

If someone was about to kill me with a knife the last thing I would think about shouting out is "Oh murder" In the case of a female confronted in this situation loud screams might be the first sounds uttered, but not oh murder !

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Simon Wood]

Hi Jon,

The Times, 12th November, does not say that Kennedy was interviewed on Friday, 9th November.

The report is contained within a paragraph describing events on Saturday.

Regards,

Simon

[Joshua Rogan]

The Times, 12th November, does not say that Kennedy was interviewed on Friday, 9th November.

The report is contained within a paragraph describing events on Saturday.

Nevertheless, Kennedy's story was that she talked to the police on Friday;

"As the cry was not repeated she took no further notice of the circumstance until this morning, when she found the police in possession of the place, preventing all egress to the occupants of the small houses in this court. When questioned by the police as to what she had heard throughout the night, she made a statement to the above effect.