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  • #16
    Originally posted by Fisherman View Post

    It is of course a coincidence to take interest in when all the other witnesses supply their addresses but the carman ommits to mention where he lives.
    On what grounds do you conclude that the carman omitted to mention his address?

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
      There we are, these are two of the posters I was alluding to.

      One of them now states as a fact that Lechmere did not arrange for the name to be used, but it if course applies that if he used two names in order to obfuscate - which was what I suggested as a possibility - then we ARE speaking of an arrangement.

      The other says that I am now "repositioning myself", since he apparently works from the idea that one is not allowed to weigh in new evidence and see how it possibly alters the case. I of course do not afford such childishness a second thought. The exact same poster is crying his eyes out when I do NOT alter my stance to fit his own, so it´s not even worth spending time on. In conclusion, I am totally free to change my mind as long as it fits his ideas - but when I take a look at how added evidence may change the overall picture and allow for or perhaps even call for a reinterpretation, then I am not allowed to reposition myself.
      Argument used: It was fifteen years before Bucks Row, so HOW could he foresee it?
      Answer: It would of course have been a measure of universal applicability, and not in any way directed towards Bucks Row.
      Conclusion: That anybody can argue something in this manner is an abomination to logical thinking. Then again, Herlock has a nasty habit of taking suggestions of mine and twisting them into something that I have never even hinted at.

      I otice that Herlock also says that I have "consistently opposed" that he used the name Cross at work, which is not true. What I have said is that it would be in conflict with his use of the name Lechmere in other authority contexts and that there is no evidence that he did use the name Cross at work. I have in no shape or form denied that he could have done so, for a very simple reason: I don´t know. And I am not stupid enough to claim that I can know what I can´t know.

      This is why I need a vacation now. Yikes!

      I look forward to your answer, Gary. It will be of a rather different caliber, of that I am sure. Will check it out when I return!
      Debating with Fish illustrates why eel wrestling would never take on as a sport

      I think that the tactic now is to wriggle so much and insult so much and to constantly accuse others of what he blatantly and repeatedly and egregiously does himself that all of us that dare to disagree might just tire of the effort and leave the field open for the Fish Lectures. To be honest Fish, you are close to succeeding.

      All that I’ve ever done is to raise doubts. And I personally, because I have an opinion, conclude that the accumulation of those very reasonable and sensible doubts lead me to conclude that CL is an unlikely Ripper. Every doubt that I’ve raised Fish, as he has a perfect right to do, puts forward his ‘take.’ Unfortunately it’s a constant that when this is done it suggests ignorance, stupidity or bias on the part of the doubter(s).

      Would CL have allowed himself only 30 minutes or so to find a victim, kill her, check for blood and clean up and still turn up on time for work no matter where he’d eventually found his victim? - is that an unreasonable doubt?

      Would CL have killed on the way to work with all the ensuing risks involved (time, blood etc?) - is that an unreasonable doubt?

      Would a guilty CL, with every chance of getting away Scot-free, hang around for Paul when it’s reasonable to expect that it would have been likely that they would end up face to face with the police (with CL in possession of the murder weapon and possibly contaminated with blood?) - is that an unreasonable doubt?

      As the evidence shows that CL and Paul were together from when they met in Buck’s Row to when they met Mizen is it not far more likely that they were together when they spoke to Mizen and that CL hadn’t manoeuvred Mizen away? - is that an unreasonable doubt?

      As the ‘name-thing’ is being used to show criminal deception on CL’s part doesn’t the fact that he used his correct Christian names, the surname of his stepfather (that had been used on a census) and his correct address suggest otherwise? - is that an unreasonable doubt?

      Whilst not conclusive in any way is it not worth pointing out that despite having someone who was alone with the victim around the time of her murder and yet they had absolutely no interest in him as a suspect? - is this an unreasonable doubt?

      We have no evidence to place CL at the other crime scenes (mommy’s house doesn’t count I’m afraid).

      The timings of the other murders would appear to suggest more someone who was freer with his time. Someone who could be out at all hours without anyone (like family) becoming suspicious. And someone who didn’t have to be at work at 4 am.

      Again not conclusive but we have no evidence of violence or criminality on CL’s part.

      So why is Fish so certain that this man was Jack The Ripper?

      Why?
      Regards

      Herlock






      "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

      Comment


      • #18
        This argument was suggested on Facebook some weeks ago, although Fish was not involved in the debate.
        What has develped since this information was uncovered last year by Gary i beleive, is the real possibility that Charles Lechmere used the name Charles Cross when working at Pickfords.
        Unfortunately it is not possible to be 100% certain that the carman involved in the accident was the same man who was also known as Charles Lechmere.

        Lets be clear here, without an address, there is no way to see if it is the same man. And there are no suriving records of employees relating to Lechmere while he worked at Pickfords.

        The lack of address in the press report of the incident need not be significant, only two minor papers cover the accident, and just from the Nichols inquest it is clear that addresses are not always recorded by the press in their published reports, such is true of Mulshaw and surpringly enough Llewellyn in some reports.

        Now logically we would think if it were the same man it would imply he used the name Cross at work. However what has occurred from some pro Lechmere "researchers" is truly astonishing.

        It has been suggested that :

        He used the name Cross when he was in trouble (if he used it at work all the time, such of course fails).

        That he may have deliberately run over the child, and it was not an accident.

        Or that he decided at a very early age to use the alias "Cross" at work to allow him to hide his identity when he wanted.


        It needs to be repeated, that there are no records to allow us to check if it is the same Charles Cross, however that has not prevent a full on counter attack, almost peremptory, with regards to the name he used at work, which until now has been strongly of the view that there is no evidence he used "Cross" by the pro Lechmere camp.


        It has been suggested in the past that if there was evidence of him using "Cross" at Pickfords it would raise issues on the "False Name" claim.
        Of course such was said in the knowledge that apparently there were no records and so that issue of his working Name would never have any actual source evidence to support or suggest that "Cross" may have been used.

        And then some source based information turns up, which was never suspected and we see this turn around.

        Fish quite rightly says views can and do change as evidence comes to light, but rather than say, "this may need us to reconsider", we see a full 180' turn about saying if he used "Cross" it now actually strengthens the case against Lechmere.


        Indeed on Facebook it was claimed to be a very clever approach which could not be disproved, there being no evidence at all.

        I see several issues here revolving around intellectual integrity and honesty.

        Similar issues were recently seen in the thread on Mizen's Inquest statement, where apparently untruthful claims were made about the contents of two Newspaper reports, not issues of interpretation, but factual untruths.

        If arguments such as these need to be made to pursue the Lechmere case, what does it say about the strengths of that case?



        Steve



        .
        Last edited by Elamarna; 06-21-2018, 10:04 AM.

        Comment


        • #19
          Hi Steve,

          It goes without saying that the absence of an address for the Pickfords man need not be significant. But it could be. And I find the fact that every other person mentioned in the report has an address quoted intriguing. No more than that.



          From the Islington Gazette Dec 29th, 1876

          FATAL ACCIDENT

          An inquiry was held on Wednesday, at the Coroner's Court, touching the death of Walter Williams, aged four years, who was run over by a Pickford's van.

          Walter Williams, of 36, Cloudesley-road , a jeweler, and father of the deceased, said on Thursday last he was told that his boy was run over and killed. He made inquiries, and he had reason to blame the driver, believing he had not exercised proper care.

          George Porter, a traveler, said on Thursday, at about four o-clock in the afternoon, he was outside his brother's shop, 3, Elizabeth-terrace when he witnessed the accident. He saw a Pickford's van going towards Liverpool-road, and he saw deceased and another child about to cross the road. The driver called out, and the witness then saw deceased reel against the near side shaft of the van about two feet from the pavement. The driver tried to pull up but the wheels went over deceased.

          Henrietta Owen, of 100, Aldenham-street she was in Elizabeth-terrace on the day in question, and saw the child run over. The van was going slowly. One child drew back, but deceased was caught by the wheel.

          Dr. Hindhaugh, of Barnesbury-road, deposed that deceased was brought to his surgery in a dying state. The cause of death was internal injuries and facture of an arm.

          William Warner, of 25, Henry-street, deposed to seeing the accident, and said he heard the driver shout, but the horse was then on the child.

          Charles Cross, carman to Pickford and Co., (blank) said he was crossing with his van from Copenhagen-street to Elizabeth-street, when two children seemed to come from behind a trap that was standing on the off-side, all in an instant, running against his horses. He tried to pull up, but found it was impossible.

          The jury expressed the opinion that the driver was not to blame, and they returned a verdict of "Accidental death."

          Comment


          • #20
            There is nothing in the account of the accident to suggest it was 'deliberate' the driver Cross was driving slowly he called out but the poor child had already made contact with the wheel. It sounds like a tragic accident. A toddler would not have road awareness, which begs the question, where was the adult keeping an eye on him. Pedestrians were always at risk on Victorian roads, there were many accidents involving cabs and carts. These accidents can be very traumatic for the drivers.
            Even If Cross / Lechmere was a noted humanitarian who helped the poor and needy, that would still be twisted to be used against him. He is in a no win situation.
            I think the accident shows he was concerned, called out but could not change the outcome, it was too quick, and he was also concerned when he found a dead or dying woman in street.
            The address of Cross was not mentioned because it was not relevant to the case, the fact he was a Pickford's van driver was. George Porter 's address is not mentioned but his brother' shop is because that is where he was.

            miss marple
            Last edited by miss marple; 06-21-2018, 10:44 AM.

            Comment


            • #21
              Hi Gary,
              Yes it could be?

              The other examples are of course interesting, but the same happens in Bucks Row.

              Another account, would have settled if it was withheld or not .

              And even if it was, it could have been at the request of the coroner rather than at the request of that Mr Cross.

              We have no way of knowing of course.

              A great find, but ultimately it tantises and does not fulfill hopes.

              If it had confirmed him as the same man, i suggest that the "name issue" would have had considerable more debate over the last 6 or so months than it has.

              Cheers


              Steve






              Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
              Hi Steve,

              It goes without saying that the absence of an address for the Pickfords man need not be significant. But it could be. And I find the fact that every other person mentioned in the report has an address quoted intriguing. No more than that.



              From the Islington Gazette Dec 29th, 1876

              FATAL ACCIDENT

              An inquiry was held on Wednesday, at the Coroner's Court, touching the death of Walter Williams, aged four years, who was run over by a Pickford's van.

              Walter Williams, of 36, Cloudesley-road , a jeweler, and father of the deceased, said on Thursday last he was told that his boy was run over and killed. He made inquiries, and he had reason to blame the driver, believing he had not exercised proper care.

              George Porter, a traveler, said on Thursday, at about four o-clock in the afternoon, he was outside his brother's shop, 3, Elizabeth-terrace when he witnessed the accident. He saw a Pickford's van going towards Liverpool-road, and he saw deceased and another child about to cross the road. The driver called out, and the witness then saw deceased reel against the near side shaft of the van about two feet from the pavement. The driver tried to pull up but the wheels went over deceased.

              Henrietta Owen, of 100, Aldenham-street she was in Elizabeth-terrace on the day in question, and saw the child run over. The van was going slowly. One child drew back, but deceased was caught by the wheel.

              Dr. Hindhaugh, of Barnesbury-road, deposed that deceased was brought to his surgery in a dying state. The cause of death was internal injuries and facture of an arm.

              William Warner, of 25, Henry-street, deposed to seeing the accident, and said he heard the driver shout, but the horse was then on the child.

              Charles Cross, carman to Pickford and Co., (blank) said he was crossing with his van from Copenhagen-street to Elizabeth-street, when two children seemed to come from behind a trap that was standing on the off-side, all in an instant, running against his horses. He tried to pull up, but found it was impossible.

              The jury expressed the opinion that the driver was not to blame, and they returned a verdict of "Accidental death."

              Comment


              • #22
                Fish,

                Midsummer is also significant to ageing hippies. By rights I should have been dancing naked at Stonehenge as the sun rose this morning.

                I'll consider your post carefully and respond honestly.

                Gary

                Comment


                • #23
                  Steve,

                  My memory's not what it was (actually I can't remember if it ever was), but I'm sure I found a third report in the Pall Mall Gazette or somewhere. It was much briefer, though, and certainly didn't give Cross's address.

                  Gary

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
                    Steve,

                    My memory's not what it was (actually I can't remember if it ever was), but I'm sure I found a third report in the Pall Mall Gazette or somewhere. It was much briefer, though, and certainly didn't give Cross's address.

                    Gary
                    Wasn't aware of the that Gary, but if its brief, we need a fuller one, which is probably unlikely given its a local traffic accident.

                    Its a shame because an address would either confirm or not the ID.


                    I think the uncertainty os the reason its not been pushed much at present.



                    Steve

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Hi Steve and Gary,

                      Thanks for all the info and research.

                      It does appear from witnesses to have been a tragic accident. Its just rather sad the lengths that some will go to to bolster their case against CL. I wonder if any other ‘suspect’ has had so strenuous an effort to prove his guilt.

                      Ok Gareth I’m guessing that you can name a certain Liverpool Cotton Merchant but, apart from him.
                      Regards

                      Herlock






                      "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        If Charles was using the name Cross, he wouldn't be hiding from anyone, as his stepfather, Mr Cross was a Policeman. And to give his name as Cross when he found, Mary-Anne (Polly) Nichols would imply to me that he was a good citizen who showed concern for something not quite right in the street he was walking down and therefore also showing he had a respect for the law and what was the right thing to do.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Hi Fish,

                          You ask:

                          Gary, what do you think about the possibility - could he have used an alias throughout, to keep an escape route open? If he was the killer?


                          Well, yes, of course he could have conceived the idea of using an alias as soon as his murderous urges started to surface (assuming they ever did), but I question the value of an alias that is given alongside other information that would identify him, such as his home address and place of work. Aliases are normally used to prevent a person being tracked down by the authorities or to conceal previous criminal convictions. In the two examples we have -1876 and 1888- the name Cross wasn't being used in either of those ways, was it? But perhaps he saw the name Cross as a sort of psychological shield, or a pair of psychological rubber gloves so to speak, used to distance himself - the hard working family man - from the predator. And as you say, should the use of the name Cross be questioned he could always demonstrate that it was not entirely fictitious.

                          It did occur to me at one time that perhaps there were some who might have had reason to suspect a man named Lechmere of dubious activity and his use of Cross was to prevent them making the connection between the man they suspected and the one they might read about in their newspaper. But having done a bit of research into Lechmere's mother's* background I'm increasingly of the opinion that it was the name Lechmere itself that was being protected from bad publicity.

                          Whatever, there's no getting away from the fact that it's odd that the Lechmere name does not appear in the records of the Nichols case or (if it was indeed him) the 1876 incident.

                          Gary



                          *I can't let this opportunity pass without quoting (not for the first time) these wonderful lines from the classic movie Kind Hearts and Coronets:

                          'Did poor Mama's silly dreaming plant in my brain some seed, which was afterwards to grow into the most sensational criminal endeavour of the century?'
                          Last edited by MrBarnett; 06-22-2018, 01:11 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
                            Hi Fish,

                            You ask:

                            Gary, what do you think about the possibility - could he have used an alias throughout, to keep an escape route open? If he was the killer?


                            Well, yes, of course he could have conceived the idea of using an alias as soon as his murderous urges started to surface (assuming they ever did), but I question the value of an alias that is given alongside other information that would identify him, such as his home address and place of work. Aliases are normally used to prevent a person being tracked down by the authorities or to conceal previous criminal convictions. In the two examples we have -1876 and 1888- the name Cross wasn't being used in either of those ways, was it? But perhaps he saw the name Cross as a sort of psychological shield, or a pair of psychological rubber gloves so to speak, used to distance himself - the hard working family man - from the predator. And as you say, should the use of the name Cross be questioned he could always demonstrate that it was not entirely fictitious.

                            It did occur to me at one time that perhaps there were some who might have had reason to suspect a man named Lechmere of dubious activity and his use of Cross was to prevent them making the connection between the man they suspected and the one they might read about in their newspaper. But having done a bit of research into Lechmere's mother's* background I'm increasingly of the opinion that it was the name Lechmere itself that was being protected from bad publicity.

                            Whatever, there's no getting away from the fact that it's odd that the Lechmere name does not appear in the records of the Nichols case or (if it was indeed him) the 1876 incident.

                            Gary



                            *I can't let this opportunity pass without quoting (not for the first time) these wonderful lines from the classic movie Kind Hearts and Coronets:

                            'Did poor Mama's silly dreaming plant in my brain some seed, which was afterwards to grow into the most sensational criminal endeavour of the century?'

                            Gary

                            May i just say i think that is a very fair post.



                            Steve

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Elamarna View Post
                              Gary

                              May i just say i think that is a very fair post.



                              Steve
                              Thanks, Steve, I was worried my 'psychological rubber gloves' might attract a few chuckles.

                              As a narrative, the overbearing mother, possibly holding the purse strings and drumming a hatred of bad women into her son works a treat for me. What little evidence there is certainly complements that view.

                              I await Fish's post-Equinox response with bated breath.
                              Last edited by MrBarnett; 06-22-2018, 01:46 AM.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Busy Beaver View Post
                                If Charles was using the name Cross, he wouldn't be hiding from anyone, as his stepfather, Mr Cross was a Policeman. And to give his name as Cross when he found, Mary-Anne (Polly) Nichols would imply to me that he was a good citizen who showed concern for something not quite right in the street he was walking down and therefore also showing he had a respect for the law and what was the right thing to do.
                                Hi BB,

                                Cross is a fairly common name, though (unlike Lechmere), and CAL's stepfather had been dead for almost 20 years.

                                If he was a good citizen who liked things to be right and proper, wouldn't he have revealed both his names to the police/coroner? Surely, he would have known that that was the 'right thing to do'?

                                Gary

                                Comment

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