Caroline Maxwell Alibi ?

[Wickerman]

Apologies if this has been posted before, but I thought this diagram of the layout of Miller's court might be useful in the terms of were the cry of " Oh Murder" might have originated.

There was also an Elizabeth Smith and Annie Govan, who lived in the court.

[Sam Flynn]

And just to batten down the hatches on that issue... it has been controversial.

Indeed, Jon! I copped a fair bit of criticism for raising the matter back in the day - polite criticism, I hasten to add

[Wickerman]

Indeed, Jon! I copped a fair bit of criticism for raising the matter back in the day - polite criticism, I hasten to add

Yeh, you & me both.
I havn't seen Michael Richards around in a while, I know he believed Prater lived over Kelly's room.

[packers stem]

Thanks, Darryl. If it helps, I'd advise that people use the left arrow to locate Prater. Source: Daily Telegraph, which unambiguously has her saying that her room was at the "front" and "above the shed", ie the storage space shown in the diagram.

And yet at the inquest she said she lived in the room above Kelly so it comes down to which you choose to believe .
Keeping in mind that report later states that......

It is supposed that she met the murderer in Commercial-street. The pair would have reached Miller's-court about midnight, but they were not seen to enter the house. The street-door was closed, but the woman had a latchkey. A light was seen shining through the window of the room for some time after the couple must have entered it.

So that relates to the door to the right of the court .
There are mistakes in press reports from time to time .
Best guess is that Prater told it as it was at the inquest .
She lived above Kelly.
She would know the difference between a noise outside and a noise in the room below .
Sarah Lewis said the shout appeared to come from outsude her door ... suggests clearly ' the court' not from a room

[packers stem]

On a side note with Prater is that she went out at around 5.30 -5.45 for a rum then went back to bed til 11.30 .
No mention of throwing up or feeling unwell , no mention of maxwell, just seems that she fancied a quick drink so she could sleep .
Hopefully that puts the idea to bed that Maxwell confused them

[Wickerman]

And yet at the inquest she said she lived in the room above Kelly so it comes down to which you choose to believe .
Keeping in mind that report later states that......

All the rooms upstairs are above Kelly's.
Prater lived over the shed, and you well know the shed was the front room where McCarthy kept his barrows in Dorset St.

It is supposed that she met the murderer in Commercial-street. The pair would have reached Miller's-court about midnight, but they were not seen to enter the house. The street-door was closed, but the woman had a latchkey. A light was seen shining through the window of the room for some time after the couple must have entered it.

That is the Blotchy encounter.

So that relates to the door to the right of the court .

The street door is the door beside the passage, in Dorset St.
Here, you can see both street doors, on either side of the passage.

Sarah Lewis said the shout appeared to come from outsude her door ... suggests clearly ' the court' not from a room

Kelly's room was directly opposite No.2

[packers stem]

All the rooms upstairs are above Kelly's.
Prater lived over the shed, and you well know the shed was the front room where McCarthy kept his barrows in Dorset St.



That is the Blotchy encounter.



The street door is the door beside the passage, in Dorset St.
Here, you can see both street doors, on either side of the passage.





Kelly's room was directly opposite No.2

Yes
You've just confirmed what I was saying .
The street door (that you suggest Kelly went through with blotchy for some reason ) is on the street lol
Therefore the report is incorrect is it not ?
Yes Kelly's room was opposite the Keylers but i
there is a difference between a sound 'outside the door ' as opposed to in a room opposite

Elizabeth Prater, a married woman, living apart from her husband, said she occupied No. 20 room, Miller's-court, her room being just over that occupied by the deceased. If deceased moved about in her room much witness could hear her. Witness lay down on her bed on Thursday night or Friday morning about 1:30 with her clothes on, and fell asleep directly. She was disturbed during the night by a kitten in the room. That would be about half-past 3 or 4 o'clock. She then distinctly heard in a low tone and in a woman's voice a cry of "Oh! murder." The sound appeared to proceed from the court and near where witness was.

[packers stem]

The above was from the Times of the 13th

The official inquest transcript says
" I lived in THE room OVER where the deceased lived" ....it couldn't be spelled out clearer , really couldn't

[Joshua Rogan]

Daily Telegraph 10 Nov
Elizabeth Prater, the occupant of the first floor front room

Star, 10 Nov
Elizabeth Prater, a married woman, who has been deserted by her husband, knew Kelly well, she told a*Star*reporter, "She lived in No. 13 room, and mine is No. 20, which IS ALMOST OVER HERS.

[Joshua Rogan]

Sarah Lewis said the shout appeared to come from outsude her door ... suggests clearly ' the court' not from a room

See post #75 for the lack of consensus on Sarah Lewis' description of where the cry originated.

[Wickerman]

Yes
You've just confirmed what I was saying .
The street door (that you suggest Kelly went through with blotchy for some reason ) is on the street lol

Seriously, I have to wonder why you are making this so difficult.
The street door was not used by anyone, and certainly not Kelly, who lived at the back. All the street door did was give access to the common area within the house, it was now part of the shed where the barrows were kept - that's why it was locked.

Yes Kelly's room was opposite the Keylers but i
there is a difference between a sound 'outside the door ' as opposed to in a room opposite

Kelly can't live at the front if her door is opposite No.2 - for goodness sake's :-)

You've already been made aware that the couple who lived above Kelly slept through the whole thing.
A 'couple' is not Prater.

[Wickerman]

At the inquest Prater said:
"I noticed the lodging-house light was out, so it was after 4 probably".

Here, we can see the huge lodginghouse lights out on Dorset St.
One of them is over the passage, so beside Praters window.



I honestly cannot see the point in arguing that Kelly lived in the front room when every single account of Kelly entering her room has her walking down the passage first!

Talk about wearing blinkers...

[Wickerman]

Here's a description of the property, which includes the shed.

"....The ground floor of the house to the right of this court is used as a store, with a gate entrance, and the upper floors are let off in tenements, as is the case also with M'Carthy's house."
Morning Post, 10 Nov.

This "store, with a gate entrance" is the shed.

Prater said:
" I live at 20 Room, in Miller's-court, above the shed. Deceased occupied a room below."
Daily Telegraph, 13 Nov.

Kelly occupied "a" room below, not "thee" room below.
"Thee" room below was the shed!

[Wickerman]

The wall lamp beside Praters window is described here:

"...and within a yard or two to the entrance to the court is a wall lamp, the light from which is thrown nearly on to the passage."
Morning Post, 10 Nov.

This is one of the lamps seen in the photo, and likely the one referred to by Prater.

[Joshua Rogan]

And still .....
Nobody has asked who 'Julia' was
She was said to have stayed a number of nights with Kelly and according to M Lewis she was seen with Kelly on the Thursday night .
Lewis must surely have been questioned by police over the weekend once his press statements appeared you'd think so did they not look for Julia ?

Times 12 Nov
"A woman, who is known by the name of Julia and who was in the habit of continually visiting Kelly's room, states she knew that she had two cotton shirts there."

Harvey left two cotton shirts (amongst other garments) with Kelly, and visited Mary as much as anyone, apparently, including staying a couple of nights. She also said to papers that she saw Kelly last at about 22:30 on Thursday night, although she also said 19:30, and stuck with this time at the inquest.
Against that is Julia Venturney who lived opposite so may have known all Mary's business. She may have been the Julia who stayed with her (had words with her husband?); Barnett mentions both Julia and Mrs Harvey staying in his Penny Illustrated Press interview, although in court he only mentions one prostitute staying.

Debs earlier mentioned the denizens of Millers Court possibly wearing each others clothes to confuse the police - perhaps they used the same trick with their names?