Caroline Maxwell Alibi ?

[Joshua Rogan]

DJA: "suspect Maxwell had her days mixed up"

This is without a doubt the lamest excuse for dismissing the most reliable of witnesses to fit into a theory .
For those people on that street that discovery was a 9/11 moment ..... you don't get that day wrong
Has anyone ever suggested similar with any other witness ?
"Oooh , I can't make her fit, let's brand her a complete imbecile , then we can write off Maurice Lewis as he wasn't called to the inquest and ignore the unnamed witness in the times , jobs a good un" Ripperology at its finest 😀

It may be lame but it's not Dave's idea;

Daily News 13th Nov
As to the evidence of the woman Caroline Maxwell, who swore that she saw the deceased at eight or nine o'clock on Friday morning, that is regarded by the police as merely an error of date. No doubt she did see the woman, and spoke to her as she stated, but on Thursday morning instead of Friday.

Daily Telegraph
On all hands the evidence of the witness who declares that she saw Kelly between eight and nine o'clock on Friday morning, is put down to error, the common impression being that the witness is thinking of what happened on probably the previous day.

Do you know the source of the milk shop corroboration for Maxwell's story?

[Joshua Rogan]

Because she told him she was coming into some money on the 9th and would settle the full arrears then.

And he never thought to mention this to the police?

[Darryl Kenyon]

Right, so Jack killed Mary at say between nine and ten in the morning. The cry of Murder at around 4 in the morning, right smack in between the two Doctor's death estimates was entirely coincidental even though Sarah Lewis thought it came from the direction of Mary's room, and Elizabeth Prater thought it was somewhere in the court also. After all the cry was common though. Elizabeth Prater said, in most accounts, the cry was common from the street, not the court.
When Catherine Pickett went banging on Mary's door at 7 30 in the morning, she wasn't dead, just asleep or out and about, even though nobody saw her out and about at that time and if the knocking did wake Mary up, she then got dressed, went out and got herself some ale, drunk it, threw it up, ate some fish and potatoes, possibly had to cook the meal all in an hour with the horrors of drink on her. Whilst nobody saw her going out, probably buying the ale and throwing it back up. Speaking of nobody seeing her, nobody saw her bring a client back between nine and ten, or probably solicit him for that matter [ apart from possibly Mrs Maxwell, plaid coat man] on Dorset st at the closest, maybe even on Commercial rd even though it was probably busy around that time, including her landlord or his assistant who probably would have asked her for his weekly rent [ note weekly IE probably paid on the same day each week Friday, not Thursday night]. Nobody saw Mary from the court put her hand through the broken window either, though said window leads directly on to the court. And the killer was really in luck because nobody saw him leave Mary's room half an hour later in broad daylight. Lucky for him he changed his MO from being a night stalker killing undercover of darkness, where he could more likely, [and did] slip away during the night.
Speaking of darkness Abberlines perfectly plausible explanation of the remains of the ladies clothing in the grate being burnt to give the killer light must be wrong, after all, he really wouldn't need that light at ten in the morning. so why Mary burnt some clothing, [possibly Maria Harvey's] is anyone's guess.
As is why Mrs Maxwell was interviewed on the ninth, and yet because her testimony disagreed wholly with what the police thought, why the Police, who would surely have asked around didn't find anybody else to testify on the twelve to back the timing of her death [mid morning], three days later even though say, Maria Harvey, testified without really adding anything to when Mary was killed. Strange that.
Oh, and I almost forgot Maurice Lewis who saw Mary even later and in a pub drinking with people at that. The killer must have worked at the speed of light to get mary back to her room unseen and then cut her up and leave all within forty-five mins
Ps Apologies if I am wrong but I cannot find anywhere were Mary told Caroline that she was from Limerick. Only - I believe she was from Limerick, or I heard etc
PPS None of the above is beyond conjecture but, [to my mind] when you take it as a whole, it is difficult for me to believe that Mary was' killed mid-morning.

[Bridewell]

Why is she the most reliable of witnesses? Her story isn't corroborated by anyone. Lawende's is by the two gentlemen he was with. Fanny Mortimer's is by Leon Goldstein etc Nobody saw Maxwell and Kelly talking. I know that doesn't mean she was lying but it isn't corroborated either.

Corroboration is useful but its absence shouldn't be taken as an indication that a witness is mendacious or mistaken. If I see someone drop dead in the street when there is no-one else around, does that mean the person didn't die? Clearly not. Lawende and his companions saw a woman whom he identified as Eddowes (if I remember rightly) from her clothing. I view him as reliable in terms of his integrity but the identification can't be seen as reliable because of the prevailing conditions and the brief nature of the sighting. Highly unlikely IMHO that Eddowes was still alive and well as late as 1.36am if she was alone, dead and mutilated 10 minutes or so later when her body was found.

[Wickerman]

Unlikely Kelly had fish for breakfast, but not as wildly impossible as Ripperologists seem to believe.

Hi RJ.
I did understand the point you were making previously, but my second point was that suggesting she ate a meal right after throwing up is questionable in my view.

[packers stem]

Because she told him she was coming into some money on the 9th and would settle the full arrears then.

Or there was something considerably more to the relationship between them

[packers stem]

I'm not sure, there's an error somewhere.
Maxwell seeing another woman she thought was Kelly seems to be the path of least resistance.
Do you have a better solution?
And M.Lewis's story didn't take place in the Court, but at the Britannia. So Lewis did not see Kelly come & go from the court, as was first reported.

Maxwell gavea press interview on the afternoon of the 9th saying she believed Kelly was "of Limerick" so that pretty much rules out wrong person too .
Doesn't matter much where Lewis saw her that day really , because we can assume he played pitch n toss in the court on a regular basis if it was a safe location , then its safe to assume that he'd recognise court residents who would come and go.
He saw her Thursday night with Dan and Julia.
Joe Barnett corroborated this when he said that her brother was due to meet her that night.
It follows that if Lewis was correct about his ID on Thursday night , he was also correct on Friday morning .
Yes there are other options to consider
One is obvious if you think of Julia and the Kennedy statement if true ....
The other I'm not going into right now but yep there are options

[packers stem]

Precisely my point. If they had food they ate it. Including porridge for dinner and fish for breakfast.

"I am a domestic servant in a Christian Home," she said, "and can't I take my breakfast when I like?" (Laughter) The Magistrate: No, I don't think you can. The evening is not the time for breakfast. Applicant: Well, you see sir, it was like this. I had a pair of kippers for breakfast and not having time to eat them I save them for dinner." --a servant in Clerkenwell, 1896.

Glasgow, 2 September, 1887: "Three children belonging to one family at Crosshill, Glasgow, partook of bad fish for breakfast on Tuesday, and were afterwards seized with vomiting, induced by poisoning." Lanarkshire Upper Ward Examiner, 3 September, 1887.

"We soon find ourselves in one of the principal streets of this metropolis of "Bloaterdom," with a kipper for breakfast, and proceeded on to the sands of Yarmouth." 1 September, 1888. Banbury Beacon.

Inquest held at Stamford, 1 March, 1887: "They prepared their own meals with the exception of dinner, which was sent to them...On Saturday night deceased appeared to be in his usual state of health, and about eleven o'clock after the shop closed, he sent out to purchase some fish for breakfast next morning. Witness got back about twelve o'clock, but failed to gain admittance."

Unlikely Kelly had fish for breakfast, but not as wildly impossible as Ripperologists seem to believe.

They weren't eating kippers for breakfast in spitalfields...... with or without potatoes .
Bread and coffee if they were lucky

[GUT]

Because she told him she was coming into some money on the 9th and would settle the full arrears then.

Certainly a possible explaination

[rjpalmer]

You have to place yourself then and not now .
These were starving people , eating one meal a day on a good day .... they got food , they ate it. You can't compare to what we might do today

Precisely my point. If they had food they ate it. Including porridge for dinner and fish for breakfast.

"I am a domestic servant in a Christian Home," she said, "and can't I take my breakfast when I like?" (Laughter) The Magistrate: No, I don't think you can. The evening is not the time for breakfast. Applicant: Well, you see sir, it was like this. I had a pair of kippers for breakfast and not having time to eat them I save them for dinner." --a servant in Clerkenwell, 1896.

Glasgow, 2 September, 1887: "Three children belonging to one family at Crosshill, Glasgow, partook of bad fish for breakfast on Tuesday, and were afterwards seized with vomiting, induced by poisoning." Lanarkshire Upper Ward Examiner, 3 September, 1887.

"We soon find ourselves in one of the principal streets of this metropolis of "Bloaterdom," with a kipper for breakfast, and proceeded on to the sands of Yarmouth." 1 September, 1888. Banbury Beacon.

Inquest held at Stamford, 1 March, 1887: "They prepared their own meals with the exception of dinner, which was sent to them...On Saturday night deceased appeared to be in his usual state of health, and about eleven o'clock after the shop closed, he sent out to purchase some fish for breakfast next morning. Witness got back about twelve o'clock, but failed to gain admittance."

Unlikely Kelly had fish for breakfast, but not as wildly impossible as Ripperologists seem to believe.

[DJA]

Because she told him she was coming into some money on the 9th and would settle the full arrears then.

[GUT]

If MJK bought a halfpenny candle on the 7th, why didn’t McCarthy tackle her over the rent then and there.

[Wickerman]

I agree .... so where does that leave us now ?
And fish and chips would be vile cold ... 😀
I repeat .
Bonds report says fish and potatoes .
Kelly was alive and well
Now we agree that the food would not be a breakfast .
So ?

I'm not sure, there's an error somewhere.
Maxwell seeing another woman she thought was Kelly seems to be the path of least resistance.
Do you have a better solution?
And M.Lewis's story didn't take place in the Court, but at the Britannia. So Lewis did not see Kelly come & go from the court, as was first reported.

[packers stem]

In fact to go further ....
Maxwell is the ONLY witness where the day was proven to be correct by enquiries at the milk shop , so she is the sole witness we can't throw that at 😁
Hutchinson , Sarah Lewis ,Cox ..... Schwartz and the rest from Berner Street , Long and Cadosche, they could ALL have got the wrong day ...... Maxwell couldn't 😉

[packers stem]

...... Maxwell had her days mixed up.

Eeeerm ...... not in this version of reality she didn't 😀
We can either look for the truth , wherever it leads us or we can pick a suspect out of a hat and then hand pick our chosen facts to suit ..... as has been happening for most of the last 130 years .
Maxwell is the fly in the ointment , she's immovable and if we want to get anywhere we should be trying to get our heads around what the options are ...