Caroline Maxwell Alibi ?

[packers stem]

Or Bower knew her as Barnett

Doubtful seeing as McCarthy initially thought that she lived with a man called 'kelly'

Anyhow
Bit more from Maxwell , same newspaper
" I didn't know then that she had separated from the man she had been living with, and I thought he had been "paying" her. I then went out in the direction of Bishopsgate to do some errands, and on my return I saw Kelly standing outside the public house, talking to a man. That was the last I saw of her.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Debra,
I did not intend to paint a squeaky clean picture of McCarthy.
He would have known that because of the conditions in that area, his residents would have had to rely on prostitution to survive, but that does not imply that he used his rents as a brothel.
The Pitch and toss was a illegal game, and I would say McCarthy would have never allowed that to be played in the court, the rear window of his shop looked over the court, and by his admission he could see the comings and goings.
He would have got in trouble for allowing this illegal game to take part about his premises.
We can only guess on the personalities of Mr and Mrs McCarthy. He appears to have been a man that stood no nonsense, and I would say Mrs M, may have had a sympathetic attitude to the women, which is why her husband took a lenient view with Mary, he knew of the local dangers, and at least during this period,may have allowed the owed rent to increase.
Regards Richard.

[packers stem]

Hi Debra,
I did not intend to paint a squeaky clean picture of McCarthy.
He would have known that because of the conditions in that area, his residents would have had to rely on prostitution to survive, but that does not imply that he used his rents as a brothel.
The Pitch and toss was a illegal game, and I would say McCarthy would have never allowed that to be played in the court, the rear window of his shop looked over the court, and by his admission he could see the comings and goings.
He would have got in trouble for allowing this illegal game to take part about his premises.
We can only guess on the personalities of Mr and Mrs McCarthy. He appears to have been a man that stood no nonsense, and I would say Mrs M, may have had a sympathetic attitude to the women, which is why her husband took a lenient view with Mary, he knew of the local dangers, and at least during this period,may have allowed the owed rent to increase.
Regards Richard.

From.the daily news of the 10th

. "Is it not astounding that he could have gone in and out without being observed by somebody on the court?" was a question put to an intelligent labouring man, a denizen of the neighbourhood. "Not a bit," was the reply, "and you would understand it if you knew the place and the kind of people. Men go in and out there, and nobody thinks anything about them or takes notice of 'em. It's everybody for themselves there."

There are no grounds for believing that McCarthy would care one iota about an illegal game and Maurice Lewis can not be dismissed purely on a personal view of Mr and Mrs McCarthy .
If he admitted he was playing it there then he almost certainly was as if it was that serious then why admit it in a newspaper .
It is , in fact , just stronger confirmation of the truth of the report

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
I agree, to actually admit playing a illegal game, it has the hallmarks of truth.
It still surprises me that McCarthy would allow any open illegal practise on his premises.
He appears to have been not a guy who stood any nonsense .
As for comings and goings ,, yes life was so different then, and men would go in and out the court, but that does not imply open prostitution.
McCarthy seemed to be the kind of person that kept in with the police and I am sure would not allow men waiting in line for servicing , with pimps in attendance..
Regards Richard.

[Sam Flynn]

Didn't McCarthy have a brush with the Law in connection with illegal prize-fighting?

[Joshua Rogan]

Didn't McCarthy have a brush with the Law in connection with illegal prize-fighting?

I think you're right, 1882 rings a bell (if you'll excuse the boxing pun). Wasn't he arrested but released as his good character was vouched for by a policeman - I'm thinking Thicke, but can't remember for sure.

[Joshua Rogan]

Bit more from Maxwell , same newspaper
" I didn't know then that she had separated from the man she had been living with, and I thought he had been "paying" her. I then went out in the direction of Bishopsgate to do some errands, and on my return I saw Kelly standing outside the public house, talking to a man. That was the last I saw of her.

Mrs Prater Inquest testimony;
"I was waiting for a man I lived with, hr did not come".

[packers stem]

Mrs Prater Inquest testimony;
"I was waiting for a man I lived with, hr did not come".

So clearly Maxwell was talking about Barnett .
There is no sense in trying to push an idea that she mixed up Prater with Kelly .
Prater and Maxwell would have been sat together waiting to give testimony .
There's no evidence that Prater was called Mary Jane ....
Prater was not from limerick

[Joshua Rogan]

So clearly Maxwell was talking about Barnett .
There is no sense in trying to push an idea that she mixed up Prater with Kelly .
Prater and Maxwell would have been sat together waiting to give testimony .
There's no evidence that Prater was called Mary Jane ....
Prater was not from limerick

I don't think it's probable that Maxwell confused Prater with Mary, but I think it's possible Lewis did. But there is something about her evidence that smacks of filling in the blanks after the fact, to me.
Believing Mary was from Limerick is irrelevant, it's doubtful that she would have had an Irish accent, growing up in Wales as she did.
And believing the man she lived with was called Joe Barnett isn't the same as knowing him before the murder (although she does say just that according to her inquest deposition).

Her police statement also contradicts the part you posted about her not knowing they had split up, and itself;

"since Joe Barnett left her she has obtained her living as an unfortunate. I was on speaking terms with her although I had not seen her for 3 weeks until Friday morning"

So, apparently, she *did* know they had split up, although last time they spoke this hadn't yet happened.

[packers stem]

I don't think it's probable that Maxwell confused Prater with Mary, but I think it's possible Lewis did. But there is something about her evidence that smacks of filling in the blanks after the fact, to me.
Believing Mary was from Limerick is irrelevant, it's doubtful that she would have had an Irish accent, growing up in Wales as she did.
And believing the man she lived with was called Joe Barnett isn't the same as knowing him before the murder (although she does say just that according to her inquest deposition).

Her police statement also contradicts the part you posted about her not knowing they had split up, and itself;

"since Joe Barnett left her she has obtained her living as an unfortunate. I was on speaking terms with her although I had not seen her for 3 weeks until Friday morning"

So, apparently, she *did* know they had split up, although last time they spoke this hadn't yet happened.

Her police statement in no way contradicts .
At the time of writing the statement she knows they were separated ,presumably as it's been mentioned , but she'd only found that out at some point earlier that day .
Anything to do with Wales is presumptive and should be viewed with extreme caution and certainly isn't evidence of anything and even if true you wouldn't know at what age she left Ireland.
Kelly , it seems , was always singing Irish songs .
I've come across traveller families in both England and Wales over the years and the accents stick ,that's for sure .
Maurice Lewis played pitch n toss IN THE COURT ....Maxwell did not live in the court , so he would be well used to seeing Kelly coming and going from her room IN the court .
I doubt Maxwell was sat with Dan and Julia 😊
No doubt in my mind at all he knew full well who Kelly was .... the mere mention of Dan should be evidence enough

[Darryl Kenyon]

Apologies if this has been posted before, but I thought this diagram of the layout of Miller's court might be useful in the terms of were the cry of " Oh Murder" might have originated.

[Sam Flynn]

Thanks, Darryl. If it helps, I'd advise that people use the left arrow to locate Prater. Source: Daily Telegraph, which unambiguously has her saying that her room was at the "front" and "above the shed", ie the storage space shown in the diagram.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Cheers, Sam thanks for clearing that up.

[Joshua Rogan]

"Opposite the house in which the murder was committed stands the Commercial-street Chambers for men - a big substantial building, which should accommodate many men of a night. The other side of the Chambers is a warehouse of Messrs. Bayne and Wright, milk contractors."

Why did Mrs Maxwell go all the way to Bishopsgate to buy milk, when there was plenty next door?

[Wickerman]

Thanks, Darryl. If it helps, I'd advise that people use the left arrow to locate Prater. Source: Daily Telegraph, which unambiguously has her saying that her room was at the "front" and "above the shed", ie the storage space shown in the diagram.

And just to batten down the hatches on that issue (it has been controversial).

There was an unidentified couple living above Kelly, not Prater.

"The walls are of thin match lining, which makes this circumstance the more unaccountable, and the couple in the room overhead had slept soundly without being awakened by scuffling in the room beneath them."
Daily Telegraph, 10 Nov. 1888.