What EXACTLY did Maurice Lewis say?

[packers stem]

Maxwell didn't confuse Kelly with Albrook ,Prater or anybody else for crying out loud .In press interviews she gave on the 9th (Daily news of the 10th amongst others ) she stated "I believe she was of Limerick" ...... should be no doubt whatsoever

No confusion for Maurice Lewis either .
He saw Kelly drinking with Julia and Dan.
This was corroborated by Barnett in his interview in the star of the 10th when he said his brother met up with Kelly that evening after Joe had last seen her .

Lewis would have been well used to seeing Kelly .
If they were playing pitch and toss IN the court then it's safe to suggest it was a favoured location of theirs for playing it .In that case he would have witnessed Kelly coming and going from her room
regularly on various days of playing pitch and toss .
Why on earth anyone would think he would confuse her with Maxwell who lived over the street is beyond me

The big question is who was this Julia who was with Kelly and Dan , and who occasionally slept with Kelly ,and where did she go ?

It wasn't venturney as she was already tucked up in bed at this point and as she had her own room in the court , didn't need to sleep at number 13

[Darryl Kenyon]

So in order for Maxwell to be right, Mary would have had to go out onto a busy Commercial St, solicit a client, whilst in a bad state, take the client back to the room, enter the room by putting her hand through the window which leads onto millers Crt. The client then kills Mary, leaves by the door walks up the passage onto Commercial St past Mcarthys, all within an hour and forty-five minutes without anybody else seeing anything despite the fact that at least two people are looking for Mary that morning. Or she could have been killed in the middle of the night when shouts of murder were heard, plus when the medical evidence seems to point to and when the murderer could have slipped away with a much better chance of not being noticed.

[richardnunweek]

Hi
Pitch and Toss was an illegal game, and I find it hard to fathom that McCarthy would have allowed that to happen on his property.
I believe that Maurice Lewis somewhat confirms the story of women drinking in Ringers, when someone wanted Kelly to come out.
Was Mary Kelly alive that morning in daylight hours.?
Regards Richard.

[Abby Normal]

Maxwell didn't confuse Kelly with Albrook ,Prater or anybody else for crying out loud .In press interviews she gave on the 9th (Daily news of the 10th amongst others ) she stated "I believe she was of Limerick" ...... should be no doubt whatsoever

No confusion for Maurice Lewis either .
He saw Kelly drinking with Julia and Dan.
This was corroborated by Barnett in his interview in the star of the 10th when he said his brother met up with Kelly that evening after Joe had last seen her .

Lewis would have been well used to seeing Kelly .
If they were playing pitch and toss IN the court then it's safe to suggest it was a favoured location of theirs for playing it .In that case he would have witnessed Kelly coming and going from her room
regularly on various days of playing pitch and toss .
Why on earth anyone would think he would confuse her with Maxwell who lived over the street is beyond me

The big question is who was this Julia who was with Kelly and Dan , and who occasionally slept with Kelly ,and where did she go ?

It wasn't venturney as she was already tucked up in bed at this point and as she had her own room in the court , didn't need to sleep at number 13

times too tight for Maurice lewis and Maxwell to have been correct IMHO

[packers stem]

times too tight for Maurice lewis and Maxwell to have been correct IMHO

Why ?
You're presuming the person known as Mary Kelly was killed in 13 rather than the obvious options .
Look at the facts first then worry about the scenario .
The facts suggest that she was alive and well up until 10am
The Bond report suggests a body was found with partly digested fish and chips from the night before (1 to 3 hours digestion time) ..... so rough TOD according to bond between 1 and 4 .
This isn't difficult to work out

[packers stem]

Hi
Pitch and Toss was an illegal game, and I find it hard to fathom that McCarthy would have allowed that to happen on his property.
I believe that Maurice Lewis somewhat confirms the story of women drinking in Ringers, when someone wanted Kelly to come out.
Was Mary Kelly alive that morning in daylight hours.?
Regards Richard.

I really don't think McCarthy would give a rats a**e who was playing pitch and toss and where .... may have asked for a cut though 😁
And anyway , no reason for Lewis to make that up .

[packers stem]

So in order for Maxwell to be right, Mary would have had to go out onto a busy Commercial St, solicit a client, whilst in a bad state, take the client back to the room, enter the room by putting her hand through the window which leads onto millers Crt. The client then kills Mary, leaves by the door walks up the passage onto Commercial St past Mcarthys, all within an hour and forty-five minutes without anybody else seeing anything despite the fact that at least two people are looking for Mary that morning. Or she could have been killed in the middle of the night when shouts of murder were heard, plus when the medical evidence seems to point to and when the murderer could have slipped away with a much better chance of not being noticed.

Maxwell was right , she had to be .Abberline would
have made her identify the body had there been any doubt ... he didn't
Got to take the available evidence for what it is and then try to work out what was going on .
The cry of "murder" came from the court and not Kelly's room btw so that was a discovery shout or deliberate

[Wickerman]

Lewis would have been well used to seeing Kelly .
If they were playing pitch and toss IN the court then it's safe to suggest it was a favoured location of theirs for playing it .In that case he would have witnessed Kelly coming and going from her room
regularly on various days of playing pitch and toss .
Why on earth anyone would think he would confuse her with Maxwell who lived over the street is beyond me

Checking the accounts attributed to M. Lewis in the press, it seems we have differing statements.

This is the first from the Times, 10 Nov.:
"A tailor named Lewis says he saw Kelly come out about 8 o'clock yesterday morning and go back. Another statement is to the effect that Kelly was seen in a public-house known as the Ringers at the corner of Dorset-street and Commercial-street, about 10 o'clock yesterday morning, and that she met there her lover, Barnet (sic) and had a glass of beer with him. "

No mention of her going for milk, and no mention of him playing pitch & toss.
So, we do not know if Lewis saw Kelly leave her room, because he does not say he was in the court playing pitch & toss when he saw her.

The Morning Advertiser, 10 Nov, wrote:
"Morris Lewis, a tailor, states he was playing pitch-and-toss in the court at nine o'clock yesterday morning, and an hour before that he saw the woman leave the house and return with some milk."

Which leaves us with the impression Lewis was in the court when he saw Kelly.

Now, a more complete version.
This one you have to read...
"Maurice Lewis, a tailor, living in Dorset-street, stated that he had known the deceased woman for the last five years. Her name was Mary Jane Kelly. She was short, stout, and dark; and stood about five feet three inches. He saw her on the previous (Thursday) night, betwen ten and eleven, at the Horn of Plenty in Dorset-street. She was drinking with some woman and also with "Dan," a man selling oranges in Billingsgate and Spitalfields markets, with whom she lived up till as recently as a fortnight ago. He knew her as a woman of the town. One of the woman whom he saw with her was known as Julia. To his knowledge she went home overnight with a man. He seemed to be respectably dressed. Whether or no the man remained all night he could not say. Soon after ten o'clock in the morning he was playing with others at pitch and toss in M'Carthy's-cour, when he heard a lad call out "Copper," and he and his companions rushed away and entered a beer-house at the corner of Dorset- street, known as Ringer's. He was positive than on going in he saw Mary Jane Kelly drinking with some other people, but is not certain whether there was a man amongst them. He went home to Dorset-street on leaving the house, and about half an hour afterwards heard that Kelly had been found in her room murdered. It would then be close upon eleven o'clock."
Illustrated Police News, 17 Nov.

- No mention of milk.
- Lewis was not in the court when he saw Kelly.
- Lewis did not see Kelly leave or return.

I think, the journalist confused Maxwell's story with Lewis's - it was Maxwell who returned with milk.

"Mrs. Maxwell replied, "Because I went to the milkshop for some milk,..."

It was Maxwell who bought milk, not Kelly.

[packers stem]

Checking the accounts attributed to M. Lewis in the press, it seems we have differing statements.

This is the first from the Times, 10 Nov.:
"A tailor named Lewis says he saw Kelly come out about 8 o'clock yesterday morning and go back. Another statement is to the effect that Kelly was seen in a public-house known as the Ringers at the corner of Dorset-street and Commercial-street, about 10 o'clock yesterday morning, and that she met there her lover, Barnet (sic) and had a glass of beer with him. "

No mention of her going for milk, and no mention of him playing pitch & toss.
So, we do not know if Lewis saw Kelly leave her room, because he does not say he was in the court playing pitch & toss when he saw her.

The Morning Advertiser, 10 Nov, wrote:
"Morris Lewis, a tailor, states he was playing pitch-and-toss in the court at nine o'clock yesterday morning, and an hour before that he saw the woman leave the house and return with some milk."

Which leaves us with the impression Lewis was in the court when he saw Kelly.

Now, a more complete version.
This one you have to read...
"Maurice Lewis, a tailor, living in Dorset-street, stated that he had known the deceased woman for the last five years. Her name was Mary Jane Kelly. She was short, stout, and dark; and stood about five feet three inches. He saw her on the previous (Thursday) night, betwen ten and eleven, at the Horn of Plenty in Dorset-street. She was drinking with some woman and also with "Dan," a man selling oranges in Billingsgate and Spitalfields markets, with whom she lived up till as recently as a fortnight ago. He knew her as a woman of the town. One of the woman whom he saw with her was known as Julia. To his knowledge she went home overnight with a man. He seemed to be respectably dressed. Whether or no the man remained all night he could not say. Soon after ten o'clock in the morning he was playing with others at pitch and toss in M'Carthy's-cour, when he heard a lad call out "Copper," and he and his companions rushed away and entered a beer-house at the corner of Dorset- street, known as Ringer's. He was positive than on going in he saw Mary Jane Kelly drinking with some other people, but is not certain whether there was a man amongst them. He went home to Dorset-street on leaving the house, and about half an hour afterwards heard that Kelly had been found in her room murdered. It would then be close upon eleven o'clock."
Illustrated Police News, 17 Nov.

- No mention of milk.
- Lewis was not in the court when he saw Kelly.
- Lewis did not see Kelly leave or return.

I think, the journalist confused Maxwell's story with Lewis's - it was Maxwell who returned with milk.

"Mrs. Maxwell replied, "Because I went to the milkshop for some milk,..."

It was Maxwell who bought milk, not Kelly.

I don't disagree .... not sure why you've quoted me there .
Yes, Maxwell bought milk , this was confirmed by the milk shop

[Abby Normal]

Why ?
You're presuming the person known as Mary Kelly was killed in 13 rather than the obvious options .
Look at the facts first then worry about the scenario .
The facts suggest that she was alive and well up until 10am
The Bond report suggests a body was found with partly digested fish and chips from the night before (1 to 3 hours digestion time) ..... so rough TOD according to bond between 1 and 4 .
This isn't difficult to work out

What other obvious options?

[packers stem]

The important thing about the pitch and toss is this ....
It's not to suggest he saw her come and go that particular day whilst playing , it's that when you find a convenient , relatively safe location to play it , you probably stick with that location until the police cottoned on .So for the weeks leading up to this he would have been well used to seeing her wandering in and out of her room whilst playing .
The importance of this is that he would have known and easily recognised Kelly and known which room in the court was hers ..... also recognised Barnett for the same reasons if that had been their preferred location for a number of weeks or even months

[packers stem]

What other obvious options?

Rather hoping you could work that out for yourself when confronted with the evidence

[MrBarnett]

Checking the accounts attributed to M. Lewis in the press, it seems we have differing statements.

This is the first from the Times, 10 Nov.:
"A tailor named Lewis says he saw Kelly come out about 8 o'clock yesterday morning and go back. Another statement is to the effect that Kelly was seen in a public-house known as the Ringers at the corner of Dorset-street and Commercial-street, about 10 o'clock yesterday morning, and that she met there her lover, Barnet (sic) and had a glass of beer with him. "

No mention of her going for milk, and no mention of him playing pitch & toss.
So, we do not know if Lewis saw Kelly leave her room, because he does not say he was in the court playing pitch & toss when he saw her.

The Morning Advertiser, 10 Nov, wrote:
"Morris Lewis, a tailor, states he was playing pitch-and-toss in the court at nine o'clock yesterday morning, and an hour before that he saw the woman leave the house and return with some milk."

Which leaves us with the impression Lewis was in the court when he saw Kelly.

Now, a more complete version.
This one you have to read...
"Maurice Lewis, a tailor, living in Dorset-street, stated that he had known the deceased woman for the last five years. Her name was Mary Jane Kelly. She was short, stout, and dark; and stood about five feet three inches. He saw her on the previous (Thursday) night, betwen ten and eleven, at the Horn of Plenty in Dorset-street. She was drinking with some woman and also with "Dan," a man selling oranges in Billingsgate and Spitalfields markets, with whom she lived up till as recently as a fortnight ago. He knew her as a woman of the town. One of the woman whom he saw with her was known as Julia. To his knowledge she went home overnight with a man. He seemed to be respectably dressed. Whether or no the man remained all night he could not say. Soon after ten o'clock in the morning he was playing with others at pitch and toss in M'Carthy's-cour, when he heard a lad call out "Copper," and he and his companions rushed away and entered a beer-house at the corner of Dorset- street, known as Ringer's. He was positive than on going in he saw Mary Jane Kelly drinking with some other people, but is not certain whether there was a man amongst them. He went home to Dorset-street on leaving the house, and about half an hour afterwards heard that Kelly had been found in her room murdered. It would then be close upon eleven o'clock."
Illustrated Police News, 17 Nov.

- No mention of milk.
- Lewis was not in the court when he saw Kelly.
- Lewis did not see Kelly leave or return.

I think, the journalist confused Maxwell's story with Lewis's - it was Maxwell who returned with milk.

"Mrs. Maxwell replied, "Because I went to the milkshop for some milk,..."

It was Maxwell who bought milk, not Kelly.

I wonder how much credence we should give to a report describing someone as selling oranges in Billingsgate Market?

[packers stem]

I wonder how much credence we should give to a report describing someone as selling oranges in Billingsgate Market?

Plenty i'd say .
He was out of work so he could have been doing anything to earn a few pennies at the time .
Does say Spitalfields market also and it's a rather irrelevant part of the report really

[MrBarnett]

Plenty i'd say .
He was out of work so he could have been doing anything to earn a few pennies at the time .
Does say Spitalfields market also and it's a rather irrelevant part of the report really

If it's a choice between 'Danny' having sold oranges in Billingsgate (fish) Market and a journalistic error, I'd choose the latter.