The Bucks Row Project part 2

[Elamarna]

Steve,

For a start, the law required that an inspector, a 'Horse Coroner', be present at the killing of any animal (horse, cow, camel - elephant) at a knacker's yard. Such an official should have been present when the 3/4 horses were dispatched on the night in question.

Gary

Gary.

In my old professional life there were official legally prescribed positions a bit like the above. However some of these did not need to be filled by independent persons and members of staff were appointed to fill these positions.

So my questions are :

what qualifications did the "Horse Coroner" need to hold?

Were they appointed or nominated?

That is could the position be held by someone on site already, including Barber?

And if not, as I guess is the likely answer, it is entirely possible that rules were bent and said inspector may have checked all at the start of a shift, left and claimed to be there the whole shift. Such does happen.

Truly fascinating subject, must read all of your post on subject on JtR Forums, done a bit already but not had time to do all.

Many thanks for the insights into the horse meat trade.


Steve

[Elamarna]

>>We do not have the official transcript for the Nichols inquest, and so have no option but to use the press reports.<<


I'm sure you haven't, but don't forget the police reports, you posts are increasingly moving intoareass they covered.

How right you are Dusty. And there is much there.

Steve

[MrBarnett]

>> Harrison insisted on prosecuting Tomkins and his accomplice, named Dawes, who admitted to having systematically robbed their employer for a number of years. On conviction, William Tomkins was sentenced to 6 months imprisonment.<<

And yet Harrison still employed Tomkins family members and, given the last place he visited before he died, seemingly allowed Pa Tomkins on his premises. Is there a story behind that Gary?


>>In April, 1888, William Tomkins was discovered in an alcoholic coma in, or nearby, HB's yard in Winthrop Street by one of his sons ...<<

Did he alert a policeman to the fact that someone was lying or dying down Buck's Row way? ;-)

More seriously, that's not an insignificant story.

Hi Dusty,

There's a story behind everything, but sadly I don't know the reason why the Tomkins family returned to London or whether Alfred Barber knew of William's past history. I think it's very likely he did, though, because, as I said previously, it was a small world. In 1881, for instance, Henry Tomkins was living in Manchester with a knacker named Nicholas Shippy whose family had lived and worked in the Winthrop Street area alongside Alfred Barber's father, William. When Shippy's father died he had moved to Wolverhampton and there hooked up with some other ex-Winthrop Street horse-slaughterers. His employer in Wolverhampton later opened a yard in Newton Heath, Manchester.

Henry, his father and his brother Thomas were all horse slaughterers, and in 1888 they were all living a few streets away from Buck's Row. William's death cert simply gives his place of death as 'Winthrop Street'. The one press report of the incident says that one of his sons (it names the son William, but his three sons were in fact, Henry, Thomas and Robert) discovered him while passing the slaughterhouse.

It seems a bit too much of a coincidence that a slaughterman dropped dead outside a slaughter yard and his son, another slaughterman just happened to be passing the yard and discovered the body.

This does get us off the subject a bit, but I think it's interesting to flesh out the cardboard cut-out figures who were interviewed and cleared of Polly's killing.

[drstrange169]

>> Harrison insisted on prosecuting Tomkins and his accomplice, named Dawes, who admitted to having systematically robbed their employer for a number of years. On conviction, William Tomkins was sentenced to 6 months imprisonment.<<

And yet Harrison still employed Tomkins family members and, given the last place he visited before he died, seemingly allowed Pa Tomkins on his premises. Is there a story behind that Gary?


>>In April, 1888, William Tomkins was discovered in an alcoholic coma in, or nearby, HB's yard in Winthrop Street by one of his sons ...<<

Did he alert a policeman to the fact that someone was lying or dying down Buck's Row way? ;-)

More seriously, that's not an insignificant story.

[drstrange169]

>>We do not have the official transcript for the Nichols inquest, and so have no option but to use the press reports.<<


I'm sure you haven't, but don't forget the police reports, you posts are increasingly moving intoareass they covered.

[MrBarnett]

Do we have any sources for that Gary ?I just find the whole issue so interesting .

Steve

Steve,

For a start, the law required that an inspector, a 'Horse Coroner', be present at the killing of any animal (horse, cow, camel - elephant) at a knacker's yard. Such an official should have been present when the 3/4 horses were dispatched on the night in question.

Gary

[Varqm]

I hope this project ends in the killer in place of John Neil and Lechmere Thain,...[John Neil] "I examined the body ""I heard a constable [Thain] passing Brady-street",instead the killer walking away in the dark towards the board school.

[Elamarna]

HB had more than three employees at the time. I doubt that the three men we know of were the only people who attended the yard that night.

Do we have any sources for that Gary ?I just find the whole issue so interesting .

Steve

[MrBarnett]

HB had more than three employees at the time. I doubt that the three men we know of were the only people who attended the yard that night.

[Elamarna]

Yes, and his dad had drunk himself to death. My own grandad appeared before Baxter at the inquest of his mate who had been killed in a drunken brawl. Baxter did not approve of people who had, in his opinion, overindulged.

So some of the apparent evasion, may be nothing more than being awkward because of previous comments. Certainly a possibility.

Got a feeling I will not come to positive conclusion on these guys. Almost certainly going to suggest several alternative ideas.

Steve

[MrBarnett]

Which of course means even if he did not give evidence at his father's inquest it remains a real probability that he attended and saw Baxter in action.


Steve

Yes, and his dad had drunk himself to death. My own grandad appeared before Baxter at the inquest of his mate who had been killed in a drunken brawl. Baxter did not approve of people who had, in his opinion, overindulged.

[Elamarna]

Presumably whichever of his sons had discovered William (Henry, Thomas or possibly Robert) would have given evidence before Baxter at his father's inquest. Was Polly's inquest the second time Henry had appeared before Baxter? Is that why he was such an awkward witness on that occasion?

Which of course means even if he did not give evidence at his father's inquest it remains a real probability that he attended and saw Baxter in action.


Steve

[MrBarnett]

Very interesting Gary.

Strange he should end up working there.


Steve

I think John Harrison, having founded HB in 1885/6, may have sold out by 1887.

But the horse-slaughtering world was a small one, I don't believe for a minute that Alfred Barber, the boss at Winthrop Street in 1888, wasn't aware of the Tomkins's history.

[Elamarna]

In 1867, over a good dinner, John Harrison, a retired businessman, and some of his mates made the decision to buy the largest knacker's business in London: the late, legendary, Jack Atcheler's premises in Belle Isle, Islington.

It was a speculative investment, the group had no experience of the cats' meat trade, but it was pitched to them as a sure thing - Atcheler proudly advertised himself as 'Horse Slaughterer to Her Majesty' - and the investors initially thought that all they would have to do would be to turn up at the yard once a month to have a dinner with their managers and collect their dosh.

However, they very soon discovered that their investment was actually making a loss and that the main reason was that their employees were robbing them blind.

One Saturday afternoon in 1871 Harrison made a surprise visit to the Belle Isle yard and discovered Henry Tomkins' dad, William, attempting to hide a quantity of stolen horse fat in a manure heap. Harrison insisted on prosecuting Tomkins and his accomplice, named Dawes, who admitted to having systematically robbed their employer for a number of years. On conviction, William Tomkins was sentenced to 6 months imprisonment.

Shortly after his release, William Tomkins relocated his family to Newton Heath, then on the outskirts of Manchester, where he and his sons worked as horse-slaughterers until returning to London sometime between November, 1887 and April, 1888.

In April, 1888, William Tomkins was discovered in an alcoholic coma in, or nearby, HB's yard in Winthrop Street by one of his sons (it is unclear which one). He did not recover, and his inquest was conducted by none other than the East London Coroner, Wynne Baxter, who would later preside over the inquest of Polly Nichols.

Presumably whichever of his sons had discovered William (Henry, Thomas or possibly Robert) would have given evidence before Baxter at his father's inquest. Was Polly's inquest the second time Henry had appeared before Baxter? Is that why he was such an awkward witness on that occasion?

Very interesting Gary.

Strange he should end up working there.


Steve

[MrBarnett]

In 1867, over a good dinner, John Harrison, a retired businessman, and some of his mates made the decision to buy the largest knacker's business in London: the late, legendary, Jack Atcheler's premises in Belle Isle, Islington.

It was a speculative investment, the group had no experience of the cats' meat trade, but it was pitched to them as a sure thing - Atcheler proudly advertised himself as 'Horse Slaughterer to Her Majesty' - and the investors initially thought that all they would have to do would be to turn up at the yard once a month to have a dinner with their managers and collect their dosh.

However, they very soon discovered that their investment was actually making a loss and that the main reason was that their employees were robbing them blind.

One Saturday afternoon in 1871 Harrison made a surprise visit to the Belle Isle yard and discovered Henry Tomkins' dad, William, attempting to hide a quantity of stolen horse fat in a manure heap. Harrison insisted on prosecuting Tomkins and his accomplice, named Dawes, who admitted to having systematically robbed their employer for a number of years. On conviction, William Tomkins was sentenced to 6 months imprisonment.

Shortly after his release, William Tomkins relocated his family to Newton Heath, then on the outskirts of Manchester, where he and his sons worked as horse-slaughterers until returning to London sometime between November, 1887 and April, 1888.

In April, 1888, William Tomkins was discovered in an alcoholic coma in, or nearby, HB's yard in Winthrop Street by one of his sons (it is unclear which one). He did not recover, and his inquest was conducted by none other than the East London Coroner, Wynne Baxter, who would later preside over the inquest of Polly Nichols.

Presumably whichever of his sons had discovered William (Henry, Thomas or possibly Robert) would have given evidence before Baxter at his father's inquest. Was Polly's inquest the second time Henry had appeared before Baxter? Is that why he was such an awkward witness on that occasion?