12:45 am

[John G]

One additional point John, after reviewing your post....Isaac and Heschberg came out from the inside of the club, and Issac noted the time when he arrived back at the club, he didnt estimate...so there was a clock available to them. Fanny was in and out from 12:30 until 12:50 when she stood there continuously until 1am, she likely had a clock in her home that she had referred to when assessing the time.

The estimated times are almost exclusively club related John. Louis, Morris, Lave...all estimates. Wess...estimates.

There are very simple reasons for why Louis and Eagle would assess how best to handle this situation before taking any action, and there are very simple reasons why they would present stories that suggest they didn't even notice the woman until after she had been cut.

What the contradictory evidence suggests is that Liz was out of sight shortly after PC Smith leaves, that Louis arrived around 12:40-45 and called upstairs for help, that Morris must have seen Liz as he arrived but later "couldn't be sure" if the dead woman was lying directly in the path he says he took. Louis then sends Issac out alone, and he and Eagle head out in different directions. At perhaps 12:50 ish. The rest of the stories are not a problem from that point, we know when the constable says he arrived there, and we know when Blackwell arrived.

All I have been saying is that Liz Stride was not seen by anyone on the street after 12:35-and that Louis and Eagle stretched the truth on timing to protect their jobs and the club.

Hi Michael,

Firstly, the PC Smith sighting must have been between 12:40 and 12:45. Secondly, a discovery time of 1:00am is consistent with the evidence of Mortimer, PC Lamb, Spooner and Dr Blackwell. A 12:45 discovery time most certainly isn't. Thirdly, what is your source for Isaac having consulted a clock?

[John G]

Hi John:



For me, the coherent people who have no stake in any outcome of an investigation are far better truth barometers than ones that risk losing everything based upon a resulting perception by investigators.

Coherent people?

[Sam Flynn]

ah I see. she wouldn't go home with him so he killed her. of course.

Sarcastic, much?

What I find amazing is all these flights of fantasy that range all the way up too a conspiracy and yet few if none on here can see the simple truth of the most reasonable and simplest scenario-that the man seen attacking her killed her and fled. I guess that's not convoluted enough.

I don't do flights of fantasy or conspiracy theories.

Have you never heard of a squabble escalating to physical violence or even death? Nothing "convoluted" about that. On the contrary, it's a not-uncommon linear progression.

[Harry D]

What I find amazing is all these flights of fantasy that range all the way up too a conspiracy and yet few if none on here can see the simple truth of the most reasonable and simplest scenario-that the man seen attacking her killed her and fled. .

Unfortunately that "simple truth" is not supported by the evidence, Abby. Stride was still clenching the cachous when she was killed, that would suggest she had let her guard down and was taken by surprise. Going into the yard with the man assaulting her doesn't really fit that scenario.

[Michael W Richards]

ah I see. she wouldn't go home with him so he killed her. of course.

What I find amazing is all these flights of fantasy that range all the way up too a conspiracy and yet few if none on here can see the simple truth of the most reasonable and simplest scenario-that the man seen attacking her killed her and fled.

guess that's not convoluted enough.

Right, just killed her and fled. No issues. So, No desire to stay and mutilate then.....so how is this a Ripper?

[Michael W Richards]

One additional point John, after reviewing your post....Isaac and Heschberg came out from the inside of the club, and Issac noted the time when he arrived back at the club, he didnt estimate...so there was a clock available to them. Fanny was in and out from 12:30 until 12:50 when she stood there continuously until 1am, she likely had a clock in her home that she had referred to when assessing the time.

The estimated times are almost exclusively club related John. Louis, Morris, Lave...all estimates. Wess...estimates.

There are very simple reasons for why Louis and Eagle would assess how best to handle this situation before taking any action, and there are very simple reasons why they would present stories that suggest they didn't even notice the woman until after she had been cut.

What the contradictory evidence suggests is that Liz was out of sight shortly after PC Smith leaves, that Louis arrived around 12:40-45 and called upstairs for help, that Morris must have seen Liz as he arrived but later "couldn't be sure" if the dead woman was lying directly in the path he says he took. Louis then sends Issac out alone, and he and Eagle head out in different directions. At perhaps 12:50 ish. The rest of the stories are not a problem from that point, we know when the constable says he arrived there, and we know when Blackwell arrived.

All I have been saying is that Liz Stride was not seen by anyone on the street after 12:35-and that Louis and Eagle stretched the truth on timing to protect their jobs and the club.

[Abby Normal]

Agreed. If so, it would be consistent with a "You're coming home with ME!" scenario, which would be consistent with Stride and the attacker being acquainted, which in turn would be consistent with his crying out, not "Lipski!", but "Lizzie!" - as others have suggested in the past.

ah I see. she wouldn't go home with him so he killed her. of course.

What I find amazing is all these flights of fantasy that range all the way up too a conspiracy and yet few if none on here can see the simple truth of the most reasonable and simplest scenario-that the man seen attacking her killed her and fled.

guess that's not convoluted enough.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi John:

Eagle and Lave only estimated the times and, in any event, gave different times for leaving the club.

Eagle said he entered the passageway to go to the side door at 12:40, Lave says at around 12:30 he stood at the gates for about 10 minutes. Neither man saw each other, nor did they see anyone else. According to the statements, of course.

Goldstein passed Berner Street shortly before 1:00am and a few minutes later Mrs Mortimer heard Louis D's pony and cart therefore, by implication, Louis must have arrived at around 1:00am, just as he said he did.

Fanny Mortimer stated that from 12:50 until 1am she stood at her doorway to the street, she saw only Goldstein at 12:55-56. that in and of itself suggests that Louis could not have been on his cart and horse entering the passageway at "precisely" 1.

At least one of the witnesses who apparently contradicted Eagle could speak virtually no English, therefore his events is questionable. Moreover, there is no evidence that any of the witnesses who apparently contradicted Eagle and Louis at any point consulted a watch.

We know people spoke many languages there, yet they managed to take statements didn't they? Also, Schwartz spoke little English, so using your logic aren't his remarks subject to the same "questionable" categorizing?

And what of Edward Spooner? He stated that PC Lamb arrived about 5 minutes after himself. Now as PC Lamb said that Dr Blackwell arrived 10-12 minutes after his arrival that means Lamb arrived at about 1:05 and Spooner 1:00am, further confirming Louis' evidence

Spooner stated that he arrived at the entrance to Dutfields Yard at around "25 minutes to 1am". This was assumed an error on his part. So he errs on the time then, but nails the time he was standing there and how long it was before a pc arrived?

Issac Kozebrodski stated that he arrived back at the club around 12:30 and "about 10 minutes later" heard that Louis summoned him to the passageway. He also said that Louis sent him out to look for help "alone". He then says he saw Eagle returning to the passageway around 1 as he returned. Funny that no one but Issac remembered that when talking to the Police. And funny how that account of events seems to corroborate the claims of other witnesses who claimed to be by the body at around 12:45.

We have statements from witness who really have nothing to gain or protect...Fanny, PC Smith, Heschberg, Kozebrodksi, Spooner...and then we have witnesses who need to protect their incomes and reputations....Louis, Morris,....and we have witnesses who by their statements verify the statements of the former group. For instance, Fanny and James Brown seeing the young couple. Fanny seeing Goldstein.

Funny that the witnesses who had something to protect were aided immeasurably by a later statement that places the woman off property, being assaulted just before her murder. A Jewish immigrant who just happens to be passing by a club for Jewish immigrants at 12:45, shortly after a large meeting.

Funny that no-one corroborates the stories of Louis, Morris, Lave and Schwartz..no one else sees what they saw, no one sees Eagle or Louis arrive, no one sees Israel or anyone in his story,...we have only their stories to go by. 2 men whose reputation and livelihoods are at risk, and one who by virtue of his story, is a savior for the club.

.

For me, the coherent people who have no stake in any outcome of an investigation are far better truth barometers than ones that risk losing everything based upon a resulting perception by investigators.

[Sam Flynn]

Schwartz's statement reads that the man was trying to pull the victim into the street.

Agreed. If so, it would be consistent with a "You're coming home with ME!" scenario, which would be consistent with Stride and the attacker being acquainted, which in turn would be consistent with his crying out, not "Lipski!", but "Lizzie!" - as others have suggested in the past.

[Jon Guy]

Schwartz's statement reads that the man was trying to pull the victim into the street.

Yes, he was trying to, and it doesn`t look like he succeeded.

[John G]

Schwartz allegedly witnessed a woman (who he identified as the murder victim) being manhandled and thrown to the floor. This is minutes before Stride is found dead in the yard. Of course, no one actually backed this up. Even though it happened outside a busy social club, and there was at least one other witness who never came forward. So yes, the natural inference is that "BS Man" was the killer, otherwise it's a remarkable coincidence that another woman matching Stride's description was assaulted minutes before Stride was killed, or that another assailant targeted Stride after BS left the scene.

I have a feeling Schwartz was the one full of BS, however.

I tend to agree. A major issue for me, in respect of this scenario, is why would Stride remain pretty much rooted to the spot, i.e. outside the club, after just being assaulted? Wouldn't her instinct be to move on, i.e. in case BS man came back?

However, one possibility is that she was waiting for somebody, most probably a club member although, of course, such a person never came forward for elimination purposes.

Incidentally, do we know who the Hungarian interpreter was when he went to the police station? Was it a club member?

[Harry D]

Hello Harry,

You are assuming that B.S. man was Stride's killer but Schwartz only witnessed a woman being pushed. His story does conflict with the B.S. man as her killer but to me it seems quite consistent with just a little street harassment of a woman by herself late at night just after the pubs closed.

c.d.

Schwartz allegedly witnessed a woman (who he identified as the murder victim) being manhandled and thrown to the floor. This is minutes before Stride is found dead in the yard. Of course, no one actually backed this up. Even though it happened outside a busy social club, and there was at least one other witness who never came forward. So yes, the natural inference is that "BS Man" was the killer, otherwise it's a remarkable coincidence that another woman matching Stride's description was assaulted minutes before Stride was killed, or that another assailant targeted Stride after BS left the scene.

I have a feeling Schwartz was the one full of BS, however.

[Harry D]

Hi Harry

Which bit of Schwartz`s account describes Stride been dragged away from the club ?

Schwartz's statement reads that the man was trying to pull the victim into the street.

[Jon Guy]

The scene Schwartz describes also conflicts with the evidence (BS was dragging Stride away from the club, but she was found inside the gates,

Hi Harry

Which bit of Schwartz`s account describes Stride been dragged away from the club ?

[c.d.]

"The scene Schwartz describes also conflicts with the evidence (BS was dragging Stride away from the club, but she was found inside the gates, and she was still clutching her cachous when she was killed). Looks like Schwartz was literally and metaphorically trying to distance Stride's killer from the club."

Hello Harry,

You are assuming that B.S. man was Stride's killer but Schwartz only witnessed a woman being pushed. His story does conflict with the B.S. man as her killer but to me it seems quite consistent with just a little street harassment of a woman by herself late at night just after the pubs closed.

c.d.