12:45 am

[John G]

She simply held on to them. As I've mentioned a thousand times, it's common knowledge now people are found dead still clutching objects in their hands, even while having gone through extremely violent situations.
It's a red herring and this is the last time I'm wasting bandwidth on the stupid cashoo.

What you're referring, in respect of people holding on to things, is as a consequence of cadavaric spasm, but that only happens after your dead. However, Stride seemed very much alive during the assault witnessed by Schwartz so that argument doesn't apply.

And, as I've noted before, it's not realistic to argue the cachous would have survived the assault described by Schwartz, or Stride being subsequently dragged into the Yard by BS man, because there's no way she was going to enter that Pitch black abyss with someone who'd just assaulted her. Not with the Ripper scare in full swing.

Let's face it, the only way you can make Schwartz's evidence make sense is by resorting to extreme theories.

[Observer]

The blood pattern, as observed at the scene of her murder, is entirely consistent with her being murdered just inside the gate which is where she was found.

[Observer]

It was wet that night which may have obscured any blood on the ground,her hand had blood on it which indicates she may stemmed the flow of blood that way by covering the wound with her hand and her scarf was also pulled tight which also may have stemmed blood.

And yes blood ran down her neck into the gutter which could have continued to flow after she lay dying and or dead in the yard.

So much for your non starter

Yeah, dream on. Fact, if she had been cut out on the street then there would have been some evidence of blood spatter, despite the pavement being wet, despite her efforts to stem the flow, and despite the fact that her scarf had been pulled tight.

[Abby Normal]

There was no blood evidence out on the street. A trail of blood ran from Stride's neck down to the gutter, that was it. Consequently your "favoured" scenario is a non starter.

It was wet that night which may have obscured any blood on the ground,her hand had blood on it which indicates she may stemmed the flow of blood that way by covering the wound with her hand and her scarf was also pulled tight which also may have stemmed blood.

And yes blood ran down her neck into the gutter which could have continued to flow after she lay dying and or dead in the yard.

So much for your non starter

[Observer]

in one of my favored scenarios he cuts her throat out in the street, which may help explain why she didn't yell loudly, he flees, her hand goes to her cut throat(blood on her hand) as she stumbles toward the sounds of singing(perceived safety/help) into the yard and expires there.

There was no blood evidence out on the street. A trail of blood ran from Stride's neck down to the gutter, that was it. Consequently your "favoured" scenario is a non starter.

[Abby Normal]

That's actually an interesting argument. However, it doesn't explain how the cachous survived the struggle in the street, i e. weren't dropped, or why Stride didn't instinctively draw both hands towards her throat, thus dropping the cachous.

It also doesn't explain how they survived the initial struggle, i.e. how Stride managed to hang on to them whilst being pulled towards the street, spun round, and thrown on to the footway, at which point she would surely have thrown out her hands and spread her fingers in order to break the fall.

She simply held on to them. As I've mentioned a thousand times, it's common knowledge now people are found dead still clutching objects in their hands, even while having gone through extremely violent situations.
It's a red herring and this is the last time I'm wasting bandwidth on the stupid cashoo.

[John G]

Hi CD


because they were singing.



in one of my favored scenarios he cuts her throat out in the street, which may help explain why she didn't yell loudly, he flees, her hand goes to her cut throat(blood on her hand) as she stumbles toward the sounds of singing(perceived safety/help) into the yard and expires there.



well BS man may have been a client, or more likely posing as a client. she just wasn't selling that night, which is why she probably ended up with a throat cut and no mutilations.

That's actually an interesting argument. However, it doesn't explain how the cachous survived the struggle in the street, i e. weren't dropped, or why Stride didn't instinctively draw both hands towards her throat, thus dropping the cachous.

It also doesn't explain how they survived the initial struggle, i.e. how Stride managed to hang on to them whilst being pulled towards the street, spun round, and thrown on to the footway, at which point she would surely have thrown out her hands and spread her fingers in order to break the fall.

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby,

A pissed off BS man presents its own problems. Wouldn't you expect some yelling if he was angry? Yet nobody in the club post Schwartz heard anything. Then you have the problem of how Stride went from where Schwartz saw her to where she was killed. Why accompany a pissed off, angry BS man voluntarily into the passage? What could come of that but a beating? And if she was dragged, you have the cachous problem. I know you don't give that any weight but at some point wouldn't Stride have known she had fallen into the hands of the Ripper and was being dragged to her death? Is it reasonable to believe that the little packet of tissue wrapped cachous which you believe had already survived her being thrown to the ground and her getting up somehow made it through her struggle to stay alive? Also, if she was dragged and fought for her life why were her clothes not torn or disheveled?

To me, it all speaks of her being with a client not the BS man.

c.d.

Hi CD

Wouldn't you expect some yelling if he was angry? Yet nobody in the club post Schwartz heard anything.

because they were singing.

Then you have the problem of how Stride went from where Schwartz saw her to where she was killed. Why accompany a pissed off, angry BS man voluntarily into the passage? What could come of that but a beating? And if she was dragged, you have the cachous problem. I know you don't give that any weight but at some point wouldn't Stride have known she had fallen into the hands of the Ripper and was being dragged to her death? Is it reasonable to believe that the little packet of tissue wrapped cachous which you believe had already survived her being thrown to the ground and her getting up somehow made it through her struggle to stay alive? Also, if she was dragged and fought for her life why were her clothes not torn or disheveled?

in one of my favored scenarios he cuts her throat out in the street, which may help explain why she didn't yell loudly, he flees, her hand goes to her cut throat(blood on her hand) as she stumbles toward the sounds of singing(perceived safety/help) into the yard and expires there.

To me, it all speaks of her being with a client not the BS man.

well BS man may have been a client, or more likely posing as a client. she just wasn't selling that night, which is why she probably ended up with a throat cut and no mutilations.

[c.d.]

hi CD
Because he was pissed off and lost his temper. Ive always thought that Schwartz may have actually witnessed the throat cutting but didn't realize it-when he saw BS mans hands go up to her shoulder area. Or it could have happened shortly after he fled.

Hello Abby,

A pissed off BS man presents its own problems. Wouldn't you expect some yelling if he was angry? Yet nobody in the club post Schwartz heard anything. Then you have the problem of how Stride went from where Schwartz saw her to where she was killed. Why accompany a pissed off, angry BS man voluntarily into the passage? What could come of that but a beating? And if she was dragged, you have the cachous problem. I know you don't give that any weight but at some point wouldn't Stride have known she had fallen into the hands of the Ripper and was being dragged to her death? Is it reasonable to believe that the little packet of tissue wrapped cachous which you believe had already survived her being thrown to the ground and her getting up somehow made it through her struggle to stay alive? Also, if she was dragged and fought for her life why were her clothes not torn or disheveled?

To me, it all speaks of her being with a client not the BS man.

c.d.

[c.d.]

I don't see how the the witnesses not knowing the killer factors into it. Didn't they have sketches of suspects as well as line ups?

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

Erm, didn't Dr Phillips give a figure of 15 minutes?

I'd put it even lower. Fewer than 10 minutes would have been sufficient for the crude evisceration of Annie Chapman.

[c.d.]

"Now I see why you've stayed interested all this time, reads like a interesting fiction. The silent invisible threats."

Hello Michael,

I have no idea of what you mean by the above. Threats? To whom?

It would seem to me that if the whole Liz/B.S. man encounter took under five minutes (which seems reasonable) and if Fanny was not at her door during those five minutes then she could have missed it.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hi CD

Church Pasage Man still went on to kill Eddowes after been seen by 3 men, and Annie Chapman`s killer still went on to kill Chapman despite Mrs Long witnessing him approaching a victim.

Yes Jon, but the individuals you sight were not witnessing a crime in progress as opposed to Schwartz and Pipe Man. So really how much attention would they be paying to a particular person on the street? Also, it would be a reasonable assumption on the part of the B.S. man that Schwartz and/or Pipe Man had run off to find the nearest PC. Why stick around at that point to commit a murder?

c.d.

[Joshua Rogan]

This comparative with Mrs Long and Annie has to end. Cadosches statement, IF true, is almost certifiable evidence that the soft cry after the "thud" was Annie. That happened around 10 minutes before Long saw someone.

Its not realistic, considering the extent of the effort expelled eviscerating Annie, to assume that it took less than 20-30 minutes.

Erm, didn't Dr Phillips give a figure of 15 minutes?

[Michael W Richards]

This comparative with Mrs Long and Annie has to end. Cadosches statement, IF true, is almost certifiable evidence that the soft cry after the "thud" was Annie. That happened around 10 minutes before Long saw someone.

Its not realistic, considering the extent of the effort expelled eviscerating Annie, to assume that it took less than 20-30 minutes.