Robert Paul Time Issues

[harry]

Twice now Fisherman,I have to agree with you.First ,that Paul out of habit would be a reliable person as to time,and second that Church clocks usually chimed the quarters.

[Elamarna]

I have always thought that the best suggestion we have for the wording "exactly 3.45" is indeed that Paul heard a nearby clock chime the quarter stroke.

At the inquest, Paul said "I am a carman, and on the morning of the murder I left home just before a quarter to four." That is totally consistent with him having had knowledge that he was in Bucks Row as the clock chimed.

That leaves us with the four minute estimation: "Not more than four minutes had elapsed from the time he first saw the woman."
To begin with, I would say that I do not think that Pauls word were grounded in a second reading of a clock. The reason for this is that if this had been the case, then he could have been sure of the time, and he would reasonably have said something like "Four minutes had passed" - he would have the exact knowledge (or think he had - if he had looked at two different clocks, they could have been unsynchronized), and not "Not more than...", which is clearly an estimation.
So how could he estimate it? Well, I myself had the same route to work for twentyfive years. And I knew exactly how long time it would take for me to get home from different observation points along the road; Passing the Landskrona crossroads, I had fifteen minutes home, from the restaurant at Glumslöv, I had ten minutes to home, from the place where I left the highway, I had a little less than four minutes to home, and so on.
If Paul knew these timings after having walked to work for a number of years, then he may have judged the distance, thinking that it normally took a certain time to cover, and then he concluded how long it would have taken given the circumstances of the murder night.

That, at least, is my five cents.

Hi Christer,
Thanks for the input.
My only issue on the estimation is 4 minutes. If he had said less than 5 I would be perfectly happy. I agree with you on repeated journeys, but it's that use of 4 which just grates with me.

I notice no-one has commented on his possible use of a watch. Apart from the cost is there any reason to exclude the possibility.

Thanks to all so far.

Stev

[Fisherman]

Hi Christer,
Thanks for the input.
My only issue on the estimation is 4 minutes. If he had said less than 5 I would be perfectly happy. I agree with you on repeated journeys, but it's that use of 4 which just grates with me.

I notice no-one has commented on his possible use of a watch. Apart from the cost is there any reason to exclude the possibility.

Thanks to all so far.

Stev

If he had had a clock, then why would he say "no more than four minutes"? To me, that is an estimation. With a clock, he could have said "It took three and a half minutes" - he would know, and would not have to estimate.

As I said, the more aquainted with a stretch you are, the more precisely you will be able to judge how long it takes to cover. If Paul knew that it was a question of no more than four minutes, saying "no more than five minutes" would take away from the exactness the lower offer would provide.

[Elamarna]

If he had had a clock, then why would he say "no more than four minutes"? To me, that is an estimation. With a clock, he could have said "It took three and a half minutes" - he would know, and would not have to estimate.

As I said, the more aquainted with a stretch you are, the more precisely you will be able to judge how long it takes to cover. If Paul knew that it was a question of no more than four minutes, saying "no more than five minutes" would take away from the exactness the lower offer would provide.

Your points are fair, am just looking for all the arguments on possible reasons for what was claimed, my particular interest is the clash of timings with Neil.,


I see one possible issue with the 4 minutes estimate, if we assume that Paul was indeed late and he was hurrying, would he not be walking faster than normal?
If so, would that not mean that his estimates are wrong, as they are based on his normal walking speed? Or was he in reality walking at his normal pace?

All questions Christer which I think we cannot answer with any degree of certainty.

Steve

[Fisherman]

Your points are fair, am just looking for all the arguments on possible reasons for what was claimed, my particular interest is the clash of timings with Neil.,


I see one possible issue with the 4 minutes estimate, if we assume that Paul was indeed late and he was hurrying, would he not be walking faster than normal?
If so, would that not mean that his estimates are wrong, as they are based on his normal walking speed? Or was he in reality walking at his normal pace?

All questions Christer which I think we cannot answer with any degree of certainty.

Steve

The estimates need not be wrong, I think; if he knew that he covered a stretch in four minutes of normal walking, then he could easily say that it was no more than four minutes if he knew that he had hurried.

Just as you say, we are left with guesswork, though.

[Elamarna]

The estimates need not be wrong, I think; if he knew that he covered a stretch in four minutes of normal walking, then he could easily say that it was no more than four minutes if he knew that he had hurried.

Just as you say, we are left with guesswork, though.

Christer to play devils advocate on the estimation, it's of course true that it includes from the time he saw the body. So that's the verbal exchange with Lechmere and looking at the body plus the walking.
I just think that no more than 4 minutes is too pricise for that.
Having said that, the calculations I have been doing on timings and distance suggest his guess is fairly close to what was possible.


Steve

[Fisherman]

Christer to play devils advocate on the estimation, it's of course true that it includes from the time he saw the body. So that's the verbal exchange with Lechmere and looking at the body plus the walking.
I just think that no more than 4 minutes is too pricise for that.
Having said that, the calculations I have been doing on timings and distance suggest his guess is fairly close to what was possible.


Steve

I can easily see your problem, Steve. But I can just as easily see a solution that I think works. To me, "no more than four minutes" need not be too precise at all. If he had the stretch divided up in sections (the way I used to do it myself on my way to and from work), then he can gauge the approximate time. And albeit the information may sound too precise to your ears, it may be a question of him thinking "Hmm, that walk would take two minutes, I know that, and then we stood by the woman for no more than a minute...well, perhaps it was a minute and a half, but no more..." That would lead him to think three and a half minutes at most. And then he said "no more than four minutes", since he thought that would cover it at any rate.

So it need not be very precise per se - it may just as well be a weighting that allowed for a range of times, boxed in by what you think sounds precise.

Just a suggestion! And just like you, I think it sounds like four minutes tops is a fair weighing on Paul´s behalf.

[Elamarna]

I can easily see your problem, Steve. But I can just as easily see a solution that I think works. To me, "no more than four minutes" need not be too precise at all. If he had the stretch divided up in sections (the way I used to do it myself on my way to and from work), then he can gauge the approximate time. And albeit the information may sound too precise to your ears, it may be a question of him thinking "Hmm, that walk would take two minutes, I know that, and then we stood by the woman for no more than a minute...well, perhaps it was a minute and a half, but no more..." That would lead him to think three and a half minutes at most. And then he said "no more than four minutes", since he thought that would cover it at any rate.

So it need not be very precise per se - it may just as well be a weighting that allowed for a range of times, boxed in by what you think sounds precise.

Just a suggestion! And just like you, I think it sounds like four minutes tops is a fair weighing on Paul´s behalf.

Christer,

It might go slightly over 4, but probably no more than 5, all depends on how long the checking of Nichols took, some activities like that are hard to judge; that minute, minute and a half could just as easily be nearer two.


Steve

[Fisherman]

Christer,

It might go slightly over 4, but probably no more than 5, all depends on how long the checking of Nichols took, some activities like that are hard to judge; that minute, minute and a half could just as easily be nearer two.


Steve

Not if Paul was on the money, it can´t...

Just kidding, Steve.

[David Orsam]

If you are suggesting that the clocks did not strike in the earlier hours, it would be nice to see some evidence for that.

I wasn't suggesting this, I was doubting they did, but only on the basis that it must surely have been inconvenient to all the many residents of Whitechapel trying to get to sleep to have bells chiming through the night every 15 minutes. After 5am maybe but all through the night? Perhaps it was different in those days but I'd like to see some evidence of it before even thinking it might account for the witness timings in the Nichols murder, especially a witness timing in a newspaper article which contains known errors of fact and which contradicts the time given by the investigating detective in his report to the Assistant Commissioner.

[Fisherman]

I wasn't suggesting this, I was doubting they did, but only on the basis that it must surely have been inconvenient to all the many residents of Whitechapel trying to get to sleep to have bells chiming through the night every 15 minutes. After 5am maybe but all through the night? Perhaps it was different in those days but I'd like to see some evidence of it before even thinking it might account for the witness timings in the Nichols murder, especially a witness timing in a newspaper article which contains known errors of fact and which contradicts the time given by the investigating detective in his report to the Assistant Commissioner.

Even Big Ben has always chimed the quarter hour, since it´s debut in the 1850:s. I fail to see that clocks were allowed to wake people up at 2.00, 2.30, 3.00. 3.30, but not at 2.15, 2.45, 3.45 etcetera. It would be an odd logic.

The probable solution to the question perhaps lies in how the chiming was not the same at all hours (or quarter hours) - in the Big Ben case, other chimes were used at the quarter strikes, and I suspect the same may be true for many clocks. It may have been a smaller, milder sound at the quarter strikes. But if you want evidence for how it worked, you will have to find it yourself, as I said.

People walked to work in these early hours too, so there was a practical need for time guidance.

[Joshua Rogan]

I wasn't suggesting this, I was doubting they did, but only on the basis that it must surely have been inconvenient to all the many residents of Whitechapel trying to get to sleep to have bells chiming through the night every 15 minutes. After 5am maybe but all through the night? Perhaps it was different in those days but I'd like to see some evidence of it before even thinking it might account for the witness timings in the Nichols murder, especially a witness timing in a newspaper article which contains known errors of fact and which contradicts the time given by the investigating detective in his report to the Assistant Commissioner.

I can't speak for Victorian Whitechapel but I'm pretty sure that some church and civic clocks sound the chimes day and night to this day, even though there's no need any more. A while ago a friend of mine lived near a church that did and whenever I stayed over the chimes would keep me awake, but being used to them she never noticed.

[David Orsam]

I fail to see that clocks were allowed to wake people up at 2.00, 2.30, 3.00. 3.30, but not at 2.15, 2.45, 3.45 etcetera. It would be an odd logic.

That wasn't my logic at all. I asked if public clocks were striking every 15 minutes throughout the night in Whitechapel. I've yet to see any evidence of it.

[Fisherman]

That wasn't my logic at all. I asked if public clocks were striking every 15 minutes throughout the night in Whitechapel. I've yet to see any evidence of it.

Suit yourself, David. There ´s a world of knowledge out there. Some of it may fit your logic.

[David Orsam]

Suit yourself, David. There ´s a world of knowledge out there. Some of it may fit your logic.

What do you think of my logic that the body was most likely to have been discovered at about 3.40am, rather than 3.45am, because that's what Inspector Abberline put in his report?