Maxwell's statement

[spyglass]

Hi all,
Is it on record that Maxwell's original statement to the police was given on the day of Kelly's murder ( 9/11 ) ?
I only have two books on hand at present, one saying she did.

Regards.

[Joshua Rogan]

I've had a quick look and found a couple of reports from papers published on the 10th referring to Mrs Maxwell giving a statement the previous day, ie the day of the murder, such as;

Morning Advertiser
"Mrs. Caroline Maxwell, of 14, Dorset-street, the wife of a night watchman at Commercial-chambers, a common lodging-house, able to shelter 244 persons, and opposite the scene of the murder, in an interview with a reporter last night, said:"

Daily News also says her statement was given "last evening".

Her statement was to the Central News reporter though, not the police, but it's the same story.

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Witness statements were taken on 9th November 1888. They are mainly in the hand of Inspector Abberline, and are held with the inquest papers at the London Metropolitan Archives.

"9th November 1888
Statement of’ Caroline Maxwell, 14 Dorset Street Spitalfields, the wife of Henry Maxwell, a lodging house deputy. I have known deceased woman during the past 4 [“or 5” — deleted] months, she was known as Mary Jane and that since Joe Barnett left her she has obtained her living as an unfortunate. I was on speaking terms with her although I had not seen her for 3 weeks until Friday morning 9th * [here there is a marginal note ‘“at about half past 8 o’clock.’’] instant, she was then standing at the corner of Millers Court in Dorset Street. I said to her, what brings you up so early, she said, I have the horrors of drink upon me, as I have been drinking for some days past. I said why don't you go to Mrs. Ringers (meaning the Public House at the corner of Dorset Street called the Britannia) and have pint of beer. She said I have been there and had it, but I have brought it all up again at the same time she pointed to some vomit in the roadway. I then passed on, and went to Bishopsgate on an errand, and returned to Dorset Street about 9 am I then noticed deceased standing outside Ringers public house, she was talking to a man, age I think about 30, height about 5 ft 5 in, stout, dressed as a Market Porter, I was some distance away and am doubtful whether I could identify him. The deceased wore a dark dress black velvet body, and coloured wrapper round her neck."

Regards,

Simon

[spyglass]

I've had a quick look and found a couple of reports from papers published on the 10th referring to Mrs Maxwell giving a statement the previous day, ie the day of the murder, such as;

Morning Advertiser
"Mrs. Caroline Maxwell, of 14, Dorset-street, the wife of a night watchman at Commercial-chambers, a common lodging-house, able to shelter 244 persons, and opposite the scene of the murder, in an interview with a reporter last night, said:"

Daily News also says her statement was given "last evening".

Her statement was to the Central News reporter though, not the police, but it's the same story.

Hi Joshua,

Many thanks for that.
so we can assume that the sighting of Kelly being seen alive would have been fresh in her mind, I'm assuming that she didn't add that little detail at a later date.

Regards.

[spyglass]

Hi All,

Witness statements were taken on 9th November 1888. They are mainly in the hand of Inspector Abberline, and are held with the inquest papers at the London Metropolitan Archives.

"9th November 1888
Statement of’ Caroline Maxwell, 14 Dorset Street Spitalfields, the wife of Henry Maxwell, a lodging house deputy. I have known deceased woman during the past 4 [“or 5” — deleted] months, she was known as Mary Jane and that since Joe Barnett left her she has obtained her living as an unfortunate. I was on speaking terms with her although I had not seen her for 3 weeks until Friday morning 9th * [here there is a marginal note ‘“at about half past 8 o’clock.’’] instant, she was then standing at the corner of Millers Court in Dorset Street. I said to her, what brings you up so early, she said, I have the horrors of drink upon me, as I have been drinking for some days past. I said why don't you go to Mrs. Ringers (meaning the Public House at the corner of Dorset Street called the Britannia) and have pint of beer. She said I have been there and had it, but I have brought it all up again at the same time she pointed to some vomit in the roadway. I then passed on, and went to Bishopsgate on an errand, and returned to Dorset Street about 9 am I then noticed deceased standing outside Ringers public house, she was talking to a man, age I think about 30, height about 5 ft 5 in, stout, dressed as a Market Porter, I was some distance away and am doubtful whether I could identify him. The deceased wore a dark dress black velvet body, and coloured wrapper round her neck."

Regards,

Simon

Hi Simon,
Many thanks also.
I have always wondered why her version of events haven't been taken more seriously then they have, especially at the time.

regards

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

And here's the official transcript of her inquest evidence. I have not altered the spelling or punctuation.

Caroline Maxwell having been sworn deposed as follows:

"I [‘‘am’’ — deleted] live at 14 Dorset Street my husband’s name is Henry Maxwell he is a Lodging House deputy. I knew the deceased for about 4 months as Mary Jane. I also knew Joe Barnett, I believe she was an unfortunate girl. I never spoke to her except twice — took a deal of notice of deceased this evening seeing her standing at the corner of the Court on Friday from 8 to half’ past I know the time by taking the plates my husband had to take care of from the house opposite. I am positive the time was between 8 & half past I am positive I saw deceased I spoke to her I said why Mary what brings you up so early she said Oh! I do feel so bad! Oh Carry I feel so bad! She knew my name — [‘‘she as” — deleted] I asked her to have a drink, she said oh no I have just had a drink of ale and have brought it all up, it is in the road I said it as she said this she motioned with her head and I concluded she meant she had been to the Brittania Inn at the corner, I left her saying I pitied her feelings I then went to Bishopsgate as I returned I saw her outside the Brittania talking to a man the time was then about 20 minutes to. Half an hour later about a quarter to nine I could not describe the man I did not pass them I went into my house I saw them in the distance, I am certain it was deceased, the man was not a tall man he had on dark clothes and a sort of plaid coat I could not say what hat he had on Mary Jane had a dark skirt velvet body and moroone shawl & no hat I have seen deceased in drink but not really drunk."

Regards,

Simon

[MysterySinger]

Who were Caroline and Henry Maxwell anyway? Not much in the way of records other than his death.

[GUT]

Who were Caroline and Henry Maxwell anyway? Not much in the way of records other than his death.

That applies to a lot of folk.

Seems to be a bloke who working in a doss house and his missus.

A bit like most witnesses in most cases, common folk who saw (thought they saw) something.

[Michael W Richards]

Caroline Maxwell had known of Mary for a few months and had barely said hello to her in those fleeting meetings. So now Mary is calling her "Corrie"?

There is no information that shows us Mary would even know the womans name, let alone use it casually. Couple that with Bond report and using pretty generous timing on the rigor mortis appearance by 1:30pm, thiese are reasons why her account cannot be accepted at face value.

[Harry D]

Caroline Maxwell had known of Mary for a few months and had barely said hello to her in those fleeting meetings. So now Mary is calling her "Corrie"?

It's been suggested that this was an embellishment by Mrs. Maxwell at the inquest to back-up her testimony. There was no mention of it in her original statement to the Central News.

Couple that with Bond report and using pretty generous timing on the rigor mortis appearance by 1:30pm, thiese are reasons why her account cannot be accepted at face value.

Have you read William Beadle's book, Jack the Ripper: Unmasked? There's a section where he makes a credible argument for Mary Kelly's murder occurring later in the morning. Dr. Bond was basing the TOD on the advancement of rigor mortis and coldness of the body, but in his book Beadle opens this inexact science to doubt.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Harry,

It's been suggested that this was an embellishment by Mrs. Maxwell at the inquest to back-up her testimony. There was no mention of it in her original statement to the Central News.

My response would be... at what point do we assume then that she didn't embellish?

Have you read William Beadle's book, Jack the Ripper: Unmasked? There's a section where he makes a credible argument for Mary Kelly's murder occurring later in the morning. Dr. Bond was basing the TOD on the advancement of rigor mortis and coldness of the body, but in his book Beadle opens this inexact science to doubt.\

I have, although I disagree with some of the leaps of faith in it. The stomach contents in terms of her last meal also helped Bond determine when her body stopped processing food...because she was dead. In any Maxwell quote do you recall any mention of Mary telling "Corrie" that she had eaten that morning?

[David Orsam]

Caroline Maxwell had known of Mary for a few months and had barely said hello to her in those fleeting meetings. So now Mary is calling her "Corrie"?

There is no information that shows us Mary would even know the womans name, let alone use it casually.

You say all this, Michael, like it's something that never been thought of before but the coroner specifically asked Maxwell about it during the inquest over 126 years ago and she gave her answer:

And yet you say you had only spoken to her twice previously; you knew her name and she knew yours ? - Oh, yes; by being about in the lodging-house.

So there is the answer. There is the "information" that Mary knew Mrs Maxwell's name was Carrie (not Corrie incidentally). It is the evidence of Mrs Maxwell.

Had the coroner and/or the jury been unsatisfied by her answer they would no doubt have questioned her further.

And you have mischaracterised the evidence of Maxwell when you say that she had "barely said hello" to Kelly, because she testified: "I knew the deceased for about four months….On two occasions I spoke to her." You have no idea what was said on those two occasions.

And I don't know about you but I often only need to speak to a person once to know their name. Sometimes, and quite frequently, in fact, I know someone's name when I've never even spoken to them.

[andy1867]

You say all this, Michael, like it's something that never been thought of before but the coroner specifically asked Maxwell about it during the inquest over 126 years ago and she gave her answer:

And yet you say you had only spoken to her twice previously; you knew her name and she knew yours ? - Oh, yes; by being about in the lodging-house.

So there is the answer. There is the "information" that Mary knew Mrs Maxwell's name was Carrie (not Corrie incidentally). It is the evidence of Mrs Maxwell.

Had the coroner and/or the jury been unsatisfied by her answer they would no doubt have questioned her further.

And you have mischaracterised the evidence of Maxwell when you say that she had "barely said hello" to Kelly, because she testified: "I knew the deceased for about four months….On two occasions I spoke to her." You have no idea what was said on those two occasions.

And I don't know about you but I often only need to speak to a person once to know their name. Sometimes, and quite frequently, in fact, I know someone's name when I've never even spoken to them.

Its fairly easily explainable in my humble opinion...You meet someone
"Hello I'm Mary"
Hello my name is Mrs Maxwell, but call me Carrie"...