Israel Schwartz in 1901

[Chris]

If i recall correctly, i have never seen Israel Schwartz`s PROFESSION in a census report as an Actor or Singer etc. However, he was reported in a newspaper report as being employed in the theatre. Shades of ego here?

Israel Schwartz the witness has not been definitely identified in other records, but the candidate discussed earlier in this thread was at various times a tailor, a tailor's presser, a grocer/provisions dealer and (from family information) a sweet-shop proprietor and watch-repairer.

The Star didn't actually describe him as being employed in the theatre, but said he "had the appearance of being in the theatrical line". Clearly, this was the reporter's opinion, not a claim by Schwartz himself.

On the date of his statement to the police, the Star report (1 October) begins:
"Information which may be important was given to the Leman Street police yesterday by an Hungarian concerning this murder."

http://www.casebook.org/witnesses/schwartz.html

[lynn cates]

languages

Hello All. There is also the matter of language for the interview. It seems reasonable to assume that, if someone from the club translated for him, it was conducted in Yiddish as it is not clear who else at the club spoke Hungarian.

But it could have been a Hungarian friend at the station with him for the interview.

One newspaper interview, however, may have been conducted in Hungarian (Star reporter?)

So, if there were some "exchange of ideas" in 2 different languages, that could account for the discrepancies.

Cheers.
LC

[ChrisGeorge]

Israel Schwartz the witness has not been definitely identified in other records, but the candidate discussed earlier in this thread was at various times a tailor, a tailor's presser, a grocer/provisions dealer and (from family information) a sweet-shop proprietor and watch-repairer.

The Star didn't actually describe him as being employed in the theatre, but said he "had the appearance of being in the theatrical line". Clearly, this was the reporter's opinion, not a claim by Schwartz himself.

On the date of his statement to the police, the Star report (1 October) begins:
"Information which may be important was given to the Leman Street police yesterday by an Hungarian concerning this murder."
http://www.casebook.org/witnesses/schwartz.html

It might also be mentioned that since American-born Harry Dam, known to have been a Star reporter, had an active interest in the theatre, becoming a successful playwright by the mid-1890's, the remark that Schwartz "had the appearance of being in the theatrical line" might have been something that would spring to Dam's mind.

Chris

[Jeff Leahy]

Blast and Damn I thought we had something new

I dont suppose you do a theatrical yidish voice Mr George?

Pirate

[perrymason]

It seems to me that all the witness statements time perfectly, and Schwartz estimate of attack is confirmed by Blackwell and Philips.

Browns statement is only problematic until you get his eye view, which was very limited. He almost certainly saw a different couple in Fairclough Street out side the Board School.

Jeff

Since you requested facts Jeff I would think you intended to use them yourself. Point of fact.... 5 witnesses in the press directly contradict Israels account and time and Louis Diemshitz,....Isaac Kozebrodsky, Herschberg, Spooner, Fanny Mortimer and James Brown.

They do in fact provide timelines that meet with Blackwells estimate, and they all state that they either could see in front of the gates or were heading into the yard to see the dead woman at least 15 minutes before Louis says he even arrived. Isaac says he was sent out for help by Louis at 12:40am, alone....Spooners walk to the Beehive then loiter for 25 minutes approximates that same time, Herschberg says he was alerted to the body at around 12:40-12:45, not one witness saw Israel at all or any BSman, nor Diemshutz as he arrives, and no-one else except for Israel sees anyone in front of the gates near 12:45am.

Since Brown is the witness of record at the Inquest for the time of 12:45am and there are no other witnesses presented there to challenge that time....I suggest you perhaps envision the wrong witness statements as problematic.

Best regards

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Chris, Perry, Chris, Lynn, and Chris,

Thinking back to reporter cum espionage writer, William Le Queoux's convoluted theory about the Ripper murders, one very intriguing element has always stood out that suggested to me he was aware of Schwartz's testimony. He wrote that the Ripper had an accomplice named Levitski. Obviously, this name is extremely close to 'Lipski'. Now, I'm not suggesting Le Queoux was right, but that he was privvy to information that the rest of us wouldn't know until 1976.
Le Queoux was a young journalist reporting on the Ripper murders during this time. It may very well be him or one of his close associates who interviewed Schwartz.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jeff Leahy]

Since you requested facts Jeff I would think you intended to use them yourself. Point of fact.... 5 witnesses in the press directly contradict Israels account and time and Louis Diemshitz,....Isaac Kozebrodsky, Herschberg, Spooner, Fanny Mortimer and James Brown.

They do in fact provide timelines that meet with Blackwells estimate, and they all state that they either could see in front of the gates or were heading into the yard to see the dead woman at least 15 minutes before Louis says he even arrived. Isaac says he was sent out for help by Louis at 12:40am, alone....Spooners walk to the Beehive then loiter for 25 minutes approximates that same time, Herschberg says he was alerted to the body at around 12:40-12:45, not one witness saw Israel at all or any BSman, nor Diemshutz as he arrives, and no-one else except for Israel sees anyone in front of the gates near 12:45am.

Since Brown is the witness of record at the Inquest for the time of 12:45am and there are no other witnesses presented there to challenge that time....I suggest you perhaps envision the wrong witness statements as problematic.

Best regards

I'm well aware that Isaac Kozebrodsky, made pretty strange claims that dont fit the known Facts, indeed I posted at length on JtRforums a press report from the Irish Times..he would also appear to be the origin of the grape story.

Spooner was with a women in Fairclough Street and his timings are way out, based on pub closing time. However I dont think that he was the couple Brown saw.

Hershburg, simply made a mistake about the time as he did about Liz's age. Although he clearly did not see or imagine grapes.

There is nothing in Fanny Mortimer's Statement or Browns that interfere with Schwartz claim to what he saw at 12.45.

I'm well aware that you believe there was a conspiracy at the club about the murder. I just don't buy conspiracy theories and think Swanson, Abberline and Reid would have seen straight through such a thing. All the FACTS point to the body being discovered shortly after 1 pm and that she was murdered between 12.45 and 12.50 approx

Yours Pirate

[Gman992]

My question is--if Jack the Ripper had an accomplice or was part of a major conspiracy--why is Israel still alive? I mean if the guy with the hat and smoking a pipe was an accomplice or lookout, he did a very poor job. And, not only he did a very poor job, but he left alive a witness or could've--according to some people--brought down the British Crown. Mr. Schwartz was a nobody whose death wouldn't of missed, yet the guy gave a pretty good description of the killer. So, the guy with the pipe was probably just one of the many people in the East End who just minded his own business.

[dixon9]

off on a bit of a tangent(as did not want to clog forum up) but what of this seeing of the knife.I cant make my mind up wether he did see 'pipeman' holding a knife or he just made it up so he did not look like a 'chicken' by not helping liz.
As said i cant make my mind up,has anyone got an opinion,unlike me sitting on the fence (again)

Dixon9
still learning

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Dixon,

As far as I can tell, there's three possibilities to the significant differences between the Swanson summary of Schwartz's statement and the Star account. These are...

1) Schwartz changed his story.
2) The interpreter intentionally or otherwise confused the facts when talking to the Star reporter.
3) The Star reporter intentionally or otherwise confused the facts when writing his article.

I can't be sure, but I think 1 to be the most likely answer and 3 to be the least likely.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[dixon9]

thanks very much Tom

Dixon9
still learning

[mariab]

DVV wrote:
Think of Sarkozy, Jeff.
He is short.
Hungarian.
Theatrical.
Wise after the event.
Apologies David, I just saw this! Amazing! I LOVE it!
Amitiés and

[Fleetwood Mac]

hi all

However what we do find puzzling is the rise from being a Tailor's Presser to a self employed Provision's dealer. How did a man with Schwartz's background find the money in 10 years to rise so quickly?

What do you think?

Keep well
JIMI

Jimi....I think you're reading too much into this.....

I'm from a mining village and in my grandad's day people were poor in that area. My grandad saved a very small amount of money.....bought some coal......split it up....and sold the bags for a small profit. Through dilligence...graft etc.....he built a business selling coal....and delivered to all round the area at one point.....he became a very wealthy man.....all from nothing....and all in far less than 10 years.

It is amazing where a spot of hard graft and a determined character can take you.

[S.Brett]

In 1911 at 26 Prince's Square, Cable Street

Israel Schwartz´son

Daniel Schwartz, 17 Watchmaker worker, Born in Middlesex St GeorgeEast

Now I found the following:

1921:
Schwartz Israel, watch maker, 35 Cable Street

Aaron Kosminski´s brother Isaac Abrahams probably lived many years in 171 Cable Street.

Is it possible that the brother of a suspect and one of the most important witnesses lived in the same street for some time?

Could it be "our Israel Schwartz"?

[Wickerman]

Do you have an age & where born, for this Israel Schwartz?

Thanks, Jon S.