Mrs Maxwell's address

[Joshua Rogan]

I've always assumed that Mrs Maxwell lived at the lodging house where her husband was deputy, but have just spotted this article in the Illustrated Police News 17th Nov;

However, it is the latest statement and it is given on the authority of the Central News:--"Mrs. Maxwell, the wife of the deputy of a lodging-house in Dorset-street, situated just opposite the court where Mary Kelly lived, said to a Central News reporter: 'I assist my husband in his duties, but we live next door, at No. 26 Dorset-street. We had to stay up all night, and yesterday morning, as I was going home, carrying my lantern and other things with me, I saw the woman Kelly standing at the entrance of the court. It was then about half-past eight, and as it was unusual for her to be seen about at that hour I said to her, "Hallo, what are you doing up so early?" She said, "Oh, I'm very bad this morning. I have had the horrors. I have been drinking so much lately." I said to her, "Why don't you go and have half a pint of beer? It will put you right." She replied, "I have just had one, but I am so bad I couldn't keep it down." I didn't know then that she had separated from the man she had been living with, and I thought he had been "paying" her. I then went out in the direction of Bishopsgate to do some errands, and on my return I saw Kelly standing outside the public-house talking to a man. That was the last I saw of her. Who he was I don't know. He was a short, stout man, of about fifty years of age. I did not notice what he had on, but I saw that he wore a kind of plaid coat. I then went indoors to go to bed, as I had been "on duty" all night. Mary Jane (I only know her by that name) was a pleasant little woman, rather stout, fair complexion, and rather pale."


Anyone know if this is true? Or is it just a confusion on the part of the reporter with Mary's address? If true, it would certainly add credence to her knowing Mary by sight, even if they didn't always chat much.

And what do you make of the line "I didn't know then that she had separated from the man she had been living with, and I thought he had been "paying" her."

Suspicion of domestic abuse?

[David Orsam]

I noticed this myself a few months ago when I was writing about Morris Lewis and have come to the conclusion that it was a mistake by the Central News reporter bearing in mind that Mrs Maxwell stated at the inquest that she lived at number 14 Dorset Street.

I subsequently obtained the death certificate of Henry Maxwell, her husband, who died of "Pneumonia Exhaustion" on 24 May 1889 in the Baker's Row Infirmary aged 52. His occupation is given on the certificate as a "Lodging House Deputy of 14 Dorset Street".

[Joshua Rogan]

Good point, thanks David. I should have checked her inquest testimony first.

On the other hand, the death certificate for Henry seems a bit ambiguous, as it could just mean he was the deputy of the lodging house at 14 Dorset St.

But you're right, it probably was just a bit of confusion on the part of the reporter.

[Paddy]

David hope you dont mind my asking but did the certificate of Henry Maxwell name Caroline as his wife ?
I always thought she might be a common law wife, as I could never find a marriage.
There was a Charlotte and William Maxwell that ran a lodging house about a decade before this, I think they had a son Henry I wonder if he was the same Henry ?

Pat.....

[David Orsam]

No it doesn't unfortunately Paddy. I was hoping that she might have been the informant, which is the only way a relative would be named on the certificate, but the informant in this case is John Gould, assistant medical officer at the Baker's Row infirmary.

[miss marple]

Carrie Maxwell seems to have been a common law wife. In 1869 Henry William Maxwell married Mary Ann Steers in Bermondsey. She died in Whitechapel in 1885. He then appears to have hooked up with Carrie.
In the 1891 Carrie age 39 born in Bermondsey appears to be a matron in an institution living in Lambeth St Michael, Stockwell Bow. She is described as single, techically true but using the Maxwell name. This is the closest match.

Miss Marple

[Joshua Rogan]

Thanks Miss M! I didn't know their marriage wasn't official.
I thought Henry died around 1889, though, so whether they were ever married or not, it would definitely make her single.

[David Orsam]

In the 1891 Carrie age 39 born in Bermondsey appears to be a matron in an institution living in Lambeth St Michael, Stockwell Bow. She is described as single, techically true but using the Maxwell name. This is the closest match.

I'm not entirely convinced by this identification. If she was still using the Maxwell name wouldn't she have described herself as a widow?

And there was also a Caroline Maxwell born in Bermondsey in January 1849 (which is two or three years out for the matron but this alone can't rule her out being the same person). This Caroline Maxwell can be found in the 1851, 1861, 1871, 1881 and (I think) 1901 and 1911 censuses. In 1901 she gives her age as 50 (when it presumably should be 52) and in 1911 as 61 so there is a slight doubt of it being the same woman. Apart from 1911 she is always in South London.

If it's the same woman then it means the only census she does not show up on is the 1891 census but if she is also the "Carrie Maxwell" working as a matron at the Stockwell Orphanage in 1891 we have a complete set and it explains why she is described as "single".

So I'm not sure we have an identification here.

BTW, When you say "Lambeth St Michael, Stockwell Bow" Miss Marple do you mean Brixton rather than Bow?

[miss marple]

Is there a way to save replies I have lost two posts even thought I am logged on by being told I am not logged on.
Everything about the Maxwells is full of mystery, they are very difficult to trace.
David, the 91 census entry seems to be your Carrie, the Bermondsey birthplace is consistant.Her birthname is Maxwell in 81 she is age 32 and living at home in the parish of St Olave. She is an envelope maker. There is a tiny chance that the 39 year old Carrie in 91, the matron could have been a lodging house keeper in the past, as that seems more suitable than employing an envelope maker as a matron.
All this is speculation of course. The entry page in the 91 Census has no residence as it is a second page. The familysearch.org describes the residence as St Michael's Stockwell Bow which is odd and wrong so will have to access the first page on ancestry.
In the 81 census is Henry William Maxwell age 36 born in Bermondsey, a lighterman, living at Red Lion st [ Joe Barnetts later gaff] His wife is MaryAnn age 36 and son Henry William age 10.
This fits in with the marriage to Mary Ann Steers in Bermondsey in 1869 and the death of Mary Ann age 40 in 1885 in Spitalfields

Is it a co incidence that the they all came from Bermondsey?
Cant find them in the 91 census, need a more detailed search. A lot more to examine, the death cert of Mary Ann and the life of the son . They may have nothing to do with the couple in Dorset St but cant be ruled out just yet.


Miss Marple
Miss Marple

[Robert]

Yes it's complicated. I've been looking at it today but didn't make notes so going on memory.

First, the orphanage matron appears in the 1939 Register at 719 London Rd Isleworth (and I think she was there as early as 1930). She was born 7th Jan 1849, she is single, and her occupation is children's orphanage matron (retired) - the last two words completed by Find My Past, because the line below has been redacted. She died a few weeks later.

This may well be the woman who was visiting William George and Mary Ann Hawkins in 1901, and listed as a friend when she is with them in 1911. In fact she seems to live with them until 1923, when Mary Ann died.

Her parents were George and Sarah. George was a waterman.

This William George Hawkins was a joiner, and his wife had been a governess at private schools in 1891 under her maiden name Shore.
A school governess marrying a joiner might seem a bit strange, but she may have been a governess at a crammer, although she did leave over £700 when she died.

[David Orsam]

Miss Marple - advise saving every post, paragraph by paragraph, as you type using the control + C function, otherwise typing it in Word first and pasting in to avoid catastrophic loss.

Ancestry does have the front page for the matron's establishment in 1891 showing it to be Stockwell Orphanage, For maintenance & education of fatherless children, Clapham Road, London, civil parish of Lambeth, ward of Stockwell, parliamentary division of Brixton, and ecclesiastical parish/district of St Michael's, Stockwell.

The Dorset Street Mrs Maxwell in 1888 was only the wife of a lodging house keeper so I wouldn't want to draw conclusions as to whether she is more or less likely to have been a matron in 1891 than a woman who was an envelope maker ten years earlier in 1881. Plenty of time for occupational change there!

[Robert]

Miss Marple. re your HWM Jr, I haven't found him in 1891 but in 1901 there is a Henry Maxwell, right age, sick inmate at St George's in the East workhouse, lighterman. There is a Henry William Maxwell right age who dies St George's in the East later that year.

There is a watermen and lightermen binding record for Aug 10th 1886, Stepney, binding Henry William Maxwell to Henry William Maxwell until March 8th 1892.

[miss marple]

Thanks for that info David.

As for the Maxwells, its back to the drawing board. Carrie seems as mysterious as Mary Kelly. There seem to be no records for her or apart from death Henry. perhaps they were not Londoners.

Miss Marple

[Pcdunn]

Joshua-- re "paying" referring to domestic abuse, I think it is very likely, but keep in mind that men had complete control over the women in their households, and beatings would have been very common, particularly in lower-class houses. I doubt a married or common-law wife could object to the law and expect much help. A common-law partner could more easily leave her husband than one with an official marriage, though both might do so.

[Debra A]

Henry Maxwell entered the Whitechapel Infirmary on May 22nd 1889 from 14 Dorset Street (and died on the 24th as found by David). He's listed as married occupation deputy. His religion is shown as Roman Catholic, which might explain why there is no marriage entry for Henry and Caroline in available records. Henry was said to have had settlement in Whitechapel for 3 years.