Israel Schwartz and the Tall Man

[Aldebaran]

I think that Israel Schwartz seems to have been a pretty reliable witness, even though he did his best not to get involved in any unpleasantness on his way home. As for Elizabeth Stride, her postmortem photo makes her appear to have been quite a pretty woman and she probably did better than most when it came to attracting the punters. From what witnesses had to say, she was having quite a busy night on September 29.

Schwartz saw a woman being pushed into a gateway of Dutfield Yard by one man. Another taller man was standing on the opposite side of the street, lighting his pipe. The shorter man, who had thrown the woman down, called out "Lipski"--for some reason, perhaps as an insult to Schwartz, who was Jewish.

Both men evidently felt that Schwartz took notice of them, which he certainly did, and the taller man with the pipe started to follow Israel and then the latter ran off as far as the railway arch--but the tall man hadn't followed him that far. It seems me to that Schwartz was right to run from that man--because the man was very likely the Ripper. As I have already written in another thread, I think JTR had already mapped out where he planned to commit his crimes. I think it's very possible that he was just hanging about with his pipe, waiting for a street woman to come along and the one who did was Elizabeth Stride.

However, she was with another man, the one who pushed her down. This seems like a violent enough act but prostitutes are used to a certain amount and, according to Israel Schwartz, the woman didn't even scream very loudly. At any rate, neither the tall man nor Schwartz came to the aid of the woman. But the Ripper had seen that Schwartz had observed him, so either decided to go after Schwartz, too, or just leave. However, Israel broke into a run and so the canny Ripper would have given up any pursuit, wouldn't have tried to run as well, as that would have attracted too much attention in case a policeman or anyone else happened along. What I think is that the Ripper simply doubled back, figuring that Stride would probably be done with her customer by that time and would either be strolling along or resting where he had last seen her on account of being beat up by the shorter man.

The description of the taller man seems to fit quite well with that of Emily Marsh, who witnessed a scary-appearing man come into a shop, asking for the address of George Lusk.

http://www.casebook.org/witnesses/emily-marsh.html

That man was described as having spoken with an Irish accent, but that doesn't necessarily signify. An Irish accent is rather easy to mimic--even we Americans do it quite passably.

[Pcdunn]

Interesting thought, Aldebaran.

I thought "Pipeman" was somewhat a shadowy figure, without much of a description. In fact, at one point Schwartz thought the man had a knife, not a pipe, or so some accounts seem to say.

I'm intrigued by the man who asked after Lusk, also. Interesting story.

[Wickerman]

Aldebaran.

Are you aware of these two suspicious characters who were looked for in the Rose Mylett case of Dec. 1888.

".....I noticed two sailors. The shorter one was speaking to the deceased, and the tall one was walking up and down. So strange did it seem that I stopped and 'took account' of them. Then I heard the woman say several times "No! no! no!" and the short sailor spoke in a low tone. The tall one was about 5ft 11in. He looked like a Yankee. The shorter one was about 5ft 7in. It struck me that they were there for no purpose,...."

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/daily_chronicle/881229.html?printer=true

No prizes for guessing who they should remind you of.

[Aldebaran]

Yes! It is certainly possible the two men were in cahoots. But [sigh] there is much conflicting information in these sources. In the Edwards book, he seems to take it for granted that everything happened to Stride on the night of the 29th. Elsewhere--it's September 30 that she was murdered. Also, there is no certainty that Schwartz saw anyone who was tall--so perhaps that isn't even the crucial aspect--even though Edwards wrote that the other man was 5'11". Why would he say that? Just a guess-because in the report of Schwartz's testimony it stated that the other man was taller? I shouldn't have put that into the name of this thread. Sailors--hah--that part I can well believe and that one was more than an ordinary swab I can believe even better. "Mr. Charles Ptolomey"--now there's a name. Perhaps the lost last scion of his dynasty.

If the two men were together and were the Ripper and his cohort, then why would the one man follow Schwartz? To kill him? Scare him off? He might have just said to the other man who had pushed down the woman "Look here, we've been spotted, so we'd best be off quickly."

[Aldebaran]

Okay--now I get it. Russell Edwards took the description of the two men from Mr. Ptolomey's account and assumed the duo Schwartz came upon were the same ones Ptolomey saw. I wonder why Ptolomey thought one looked like a Yank.

[Joshua Rogan]

The pipe-man's height was noted in Schwartz' police statement;

"Second man: age, 35; ht., 5 ft 11in; comp., fresh; hair, light brown; dress, dark overcoat, old black hard felt hat, wide brim; had a clay pipe in his hand."

His description in the Star 1st Oct is less precise and the pipe has somehow changed into a knife, perhaps through translation difficulties or exaggeration;

"A SECOND MAN CAME OUT of the doorway of the public-house a few doors off, and shouting out some sort of warning to the man who was with the woman, rushed forward as if to attack the intruder. The Hungarian states positively that he saw a knife in this second man's hand, but he waited to see no more. He fled incontinently, to his new lodgings. He described THE MAN WITH THE WOMAN as about 30 years of age, rather stoutly built, and wearing a brown moustache. He was dressed respectably in dark clothes and felt hat. The man who came at him with a knife he also describes, but not in detail. He says he was taller than the other, but not so stout, and that his moustaches were red."

It seems unlikely that the two men could be working together since Schwartz followed the attacker down Berner Street from Commercial Road, while the other was already lurking in a doorway on the corner of Berner St and Fairclough St. It's also unclear which man shouted, and if so, who to/at.
For what it's worth, my take is that Schwartz was simply startled by the appearance of an innocent 'bystander' appearing unexpectedly, and ran off.

[Aldebaran]

It seems unlikely that the two men could be working together since Schwartz followed the attacker down Berner Street from Commercial Road, while the other was already lurking in a doorway on the corner of Berner St and Fairclough St. It's also unclear which man shouted, and if so, who to/at.
For what it's worth, my take is that Schwartz was simply startled by the appearance of an innocent 'bystander' appearing unexpectedly, and ran off.

Why would Schwartz have been frightened by an innocent bystander? If I had been he, I think I would have been reassured by the appearance of a taller [at least I was right to make him tall, after all] man, who looked like he meant me no harm. I see no reason, under that scenario, to start running. After all, the other man was busy with the woman and not likely to come after Schwartz--unless he made a menacing gesture toward him. Do you think shouting "Lipski!" by either man would have been enough to scare Schwartz that much? However, according to CI Donald Swanson's report of the account of Schwartz, it was the man with the woman who yelled "Lipski!" Schwartz took off running because the taller man was following him and he probably hadn't liked the look of him at all.
And don't forget the "innocent party" never came forward, never told the police anything about what had occurred on that street, even though he must surely have found out that a woman was discovered there--murdered.

Anyway, Schwartz deliberately crossed the street, not wanting to confront the man who had accosted the woman--and that's when he had a good look at the taller man who was over there. Now, Schwartz had probably seen plenty of altercations between the street women [and what respectable woman would be out unescorted at that late hour?] , their blokes, their pimps, and whoever else. A lot of people had no sympathy for the Unfortunates because they thought they traded sex for drinks money--and that seems about right most of the time from the bios of the murdered women. I feel few would have intervened on behalf of the prostitutes, but Israel Schwartz did come forward to talk to the police. Some say the tall man failed to come forward because he may have been looking for quick sex, too, and didn't want to become implicated. But there's also the scenario I gave at the beginning of the thread. Besides, you didn't have to hang around that late to find a prostitute in the East End. You could find one a lot earlier, even during the day. Israel Schwartz didn't worry about being accused of soliciting because he had been at a meeting and was returning home. What alibi did those other two have for being there at a quarter to one in the morning? What time did the pubs close?

[Aldebaran]

Another thing to add to the murder of Elizabeth Stride is the possibility that the shorter man who pushed the woman was a Jew, even Aaron Kosminski. That would have been the one against whom Israel Schwartz said he would not testify. But here's the thing: It seems to me that when Schwartz was asked to identify Kosminski, the latter was already in an asylum. So perhaps Schwartz, in order to get the idea that a Jew was the Ripper dismissed, simply identified Kosminski, a man considered mad [probably even by his own relatives] and who likely would not be hung or even tried.

It may have been that Kosminski, who had no connection with the taller man, became angry at Elizabeth Stride for some reason. The two of them may even have known one another. Aaron Kosminski, as we know, could have a temper and had even threatened his own sister, but grabbing a woman by the shoulders and pushing her is not necessarily the same thing as murdering her. Stride seems to have been the only victim treated in this fashion, pushed with such force as to have left bruising. Not only that but, with the fear that was already a factor among the Unfortunates, why wouldn't Stride have screamed with all her might the moment the man put his hands on her and gave her a shove? Perhaps she knew the man was a head case but didn't expect to be killed by him right then and there.

And, then, if Kosminski was the murderer, why did he wander in the direction of the city of London and kill Catherine Eddowes within its precincts? Kosminski didn't live there, did he--so why would he look for another prostitute in Mitre Square? Did he think to himself, "Well, let's see--I've already murdered women to the east, north and south--now I must get one to the west"? The methodical Aaron Kosminski--I don't think so.

[YomRippur]

My belief is that the man who shouted "Lipski" was likely the Ripper. The second man that Israel Schwartz saw was probably attracted by the shouting of "Lipski", so he followed Schwartz for a while out of curiosity. In short, this possible Ripper distracted the second man (and perhaps other passersby as well) by shouting "Lipski" and brought the attention away from him and to Schwartz. It's a shame that this second man was never sought, identified, nor interviewed -- another stroke of good luck to the killer.

[c.d.]

I doubt very much whether any man was ever accused of attempting to engage in sex with a prostitute unless caught in flagrante delicto with the woman. Who would testify against him, the prostitute he was soliciting?

c.d.

[c.d.]

"Why would Schwartz have been frightened by an innocent bystander? If I had been he, I think I would have been reassured by the appearance of a taller [at least I was right to make him tall, after all] man, who looked like he meant me no harm. "

He probably believed that the Pipe Man was a confederate of the B.S. man.

c.d.

[c.d.]

"My belief is that the man who shouted "Lipski" was likely the Ripper."

Hello Yom,

If so, why do you think he went on to kill Stride after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man. At that point all he could be accused of is pushing a woman. Hardly a capital offense.

c.d.

[YomRippur]

"My belief is that the man who shouted "Lipski" was likely the Ripper."

Hello Yom,

If so, why do you think he went on to kill Stride after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man. At that point all he could be accused of is pushing a woman. Hardly a capital offense.

c.d.

Hi c.d.,

That might have been why the killer didn't carry out his intended full-on mutilations. He probably thought that since he had just been seen by two men, it would be best to end this quickly. He couldn't leave Stride alive because she would have been able to identify him. Yes, pushing a woman might be a small offense, but the killer might have been trying to avoid arrest for any reason fearing his Ripper identity might be revealed. So he cut her throat only and took off without the mutilations. The two things that might have worked in his favor was that second man might not have had a good look at him (the shout of "Lipski" might have distracted him from paying attention to the killer) and he was never identified nor interviewed.

[dantheman]

Aldebaran.



No prizes for guessing who they should remind you of.

Tumblety perhaps? Wasn't Tabram last seen with her girlfriend and two military men? Assuming Martha was a ripper victim (which I think she was), It would be nice to know the heights of the two military men that night.

[RockySullivan]

My belief is that the man who shouted "Lipski" was likely the Ripper. The second man that Israel Schwartz saw was probably attracted by the shouting of "Lipski", so he followed Schwartz for a while out of curiosity. In short, this possible Ripper distracted the second man (and perhaps other passersby as well) by shouting "Lipski" and brought the attention away from him and to Schwartz. It's a shame that this second man was never sought, identified, nor interviewed -- another stroke of good luck to the killer.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=8520