Lechmere graves and tragedy

[Fisherman]

So, Fish, Lechmere's being buried in a separate grave might suggest that he was guilty. On the other hand, it might not.

Thanks for pushing the investigation an important step forward. I'm sure we've all gained from that, Fish.

The problem is, Robert, that miss marple won´t even accept the possibility.
And overall, your contribution is every bit as nutty as always: He either killed her or he didn´t, you see.

[David Orsam]

The problem is, Robert, that miss marple won´t even accept the possibility.

I read her as saying it was so common an occurrence that it is of no significance.

Whereas you are saying...no, hold on, I'd better not attempt a summary in case I'm accused of being a liar again.

Whether it was very common or not is a factual question and whether it is of significance or not is a matter of judgement based on the factual question.

Either way, I can't see any need for personal abuse about the matter.

[Columbo]

Hi Miss Marple,

Fisherman is hypothesizing that Charles Lechmere and his wife had some problems which would explain why Charles was placed in a common grave.

Do you happen to know how common such procedures were? Is there any statistics for married couples having made a choice for a common grave for one of them?

Regards, Pierre

Maybe she found out he was cuttin' up whores. let's just say it already.

Columbo

[Columbo]

May I just point out that one of the annoying minor mysteries of musical history is the exact location of the grave of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. When he died in 1791 in Vienna, Mozart had been ill for some months, and his financial situation was "straightened". His wife Constanza was able to have a respectable funeral, but the funeral party left the cemetery early (I believe due to really bad weather) and nobody saw where the impoverished musical genius was buried by the employees of the cemetery. It is believed he was buried in a common paupers' grave area in the cemetery.

Jeff

Maybe Mozart's wife found out he was cuttin' up whores.

Columbo

[Columbo]

I want to clear up a few misconceptions as to why to Lechmeres were buried in different parts of Bow Cemetery.
Charles Letchmere died in 1920, he had been living at Rounton Rd Bromley He is buried in a common grave at Tower Hamlets [ Bow] Cemetery because the family could not afford a private grave. Funeral money would be spent on the hearse, the horses the coffin. Eastenders liked to make a show of the funeral. His wife Elizabeth died in 1940 age nearly 90. She had been living at the Central Home Leytonstone,a former workhouse which had been taken over by the council in 1936 for the aged and infirm. She is buried in a common grave. She died in The Blitz, the sustained bombing campaigne against London that started on Sept 7th 1940. It was not possible to bury her in the same common grave as her husband, as he had died twenty years earlier and they were not marked. The cemetery was bombed also during the war.
In 1943 was the Bethnal Green tube disaster in which 173 people died, the most cilvilian deaths in one incident. The underground stations were being used as bomb shelters. On the night of 3d March, at 8.22 the sirens went off. The entrance to Bethnal Green Station was small 10/12 and lit by a 25watt bulb. It had been raining and the steps were slippery. Hundreds of people crowded into the entrance, someone slipped and they all went down like dominos crushed to death. 27 men 84 women, 62 children and 62 injured.
Among the dead were the son of Charles Allen Lechmere, Thomas Allen Lechmere 66, his wife Florence 66, their son, Thomas Charles, 43. Thomas wife, May survived with a few bruises.
Thomas Charles Lechmere was awarded a George Cross [ bravery by cilvilians] forth class i think for trying to save others during the disaster.
Churchill did not allow it to be reported as he thought it would be bad for moral and hand a propaganda tool to the nazis.

Miss Marple

Very interesting. Sad story about the station. Thanks for the info.

Columbo

[Columbo]

Mr Barnett, the cost of an internment is not the same as the price of a grave. A freehold double grave could cost anything up to hundreds depending on several factors. Where placed, brick lined or earth. Tower Hamlets was cheaper than some other cemeteries. I can find out the costs. An internment was the cost of the gravediggers doing the digging, not the price of a freehold grave, added to that are the funeral costs anything from 5 to fifty pounds. Added to that, a freehold grave needs a monument, which can run to a lot of money, even a simple stone.
As i have said before, the money is better spent on a good sendoff, a decent eastend funeral with a glass hearse, black horses, morning cards, than wasted on a private grave. Every funeral would have morning cards.[ I collect them], wheather the person was in a public grave or not, as long as there were people to morn them.

I am a London Cemetery tour guide, I have contacts in several cemeteries and know a lot about the history of graveyards. My contact at Tower Hamlets has made it quite clear that a couple who died twenty years apart buried in public graves would not be in the same grave. Public graves get full up.
There has been a lot of nonsense about this question what it is quite straightfoward. There is no mystery.


Miss Marple

Nice to have info from a person in the field for which they're posting. Nice work.

Columbo

[Columbo]

And overall, your contribution is every bit as nutty as always.

That's the funniest quip today!

Columbo

[Robert]

Hi Miss Marple

I think when she died Elizabeth was at least with family - in 1939 she was with her daughter Elizabeth Lees and her husband. I haven't seen her death certificate so I don't know if she was killed by bombing. At least she missed the Bethnal Green tragedy and the big rocket demolition in 1945.

http://www.newhamstory.com/node/785

[Mayerling]

Maybe Mozart's wife found out he was cuttin' up whores.

Columbo

Perhaps that explains the "Masonic" Conspiracy metaphysics of "The Magic Flute".

Jeff

[drstrange169]

Thanks for the link Robert.

My mother was buried under rubble from a doodlebug. I still have her teddy bear that she was holding when they dug her out.

She was one of the lucky ones as she survived the experience.

[Robert]

You're welcome, Dusty. Your mum was lucky indeed.

I still have my teddy bear - he wasn't saved from the rubble, but he's the survivor of a thousand fistfights re-enacted from such shows as "Rawhide," "Bonanza" and "Gunsmoke."

[GUT]

You're welcome, Dusty. Your mum was lucky indeed.

I still have my teddy bear - he wasn't saved from the rubble, but he's the survivor of a thousand fistfights re-enacted from such shows as "Rawhide," "Bonanza" and "Gunsmoke."

I've got one of those too, his name is Bruno.

[miss marple]

Yes Robert, She missed the big ones. I presume she died of old age related ailments as she was in a home for the aged and infirm. In spite of Fishermans insults, which don't bother me, one has to make a conclusion from the facts, comparisons and the social history of the time,in what was the most likely scenario
Mrs Lechmere was buried in a common grave, which leads to believe there was not enough money for a private grave in the family. So she was either buried by family members or buried by the Central Home in a common grave. Either way it it suggests that pre planning had not been on the agenda and money was short.

Miss Marple

[Fisherman]

Whereas you are saying...no, hold on, I'd better not attempt a summary in case I'm accused of being a liar again.

Good idea - one time is bad enough.

[Fisherman]

Yes Robert, She missed the big ones. I presume she died of old age related ailments as she was in a home for the aged and infirm. In spite of Fishermans insults, which don't bother me, one has to make a conclusion from the facts, comparisons and the social history of the time,in what was the most likely scenario
Mrs Lechmere was buried in a common grave, which leads to believe there was not enough money for a private grave in the family. So she was either buried by family members or buried by the Central Home in a common grave. Either way it it suggests that pre planning had not been on the agenda and money was short.

Miss Marple

The pre-planning I am talking about was the one preceding Charles´ burial. That was the burial that made sure that the two would not spend eternity together.

And since he left a neat sum of money (262 pounds) there would have been enough to buy a private gravesite, allowing room for the future arrival of his wife.

That, and that only, is what is of interest here. It leaves the possibility open that Elizabeth made a conscious decision to stay apart from Charles when dead.

As I and Gary have told you repeatedly, it is a moot question whether there was such a decision made. It cannot be proven, and it cannot be discarded.