Lechmere Continuation Thread

[Robert]

This is a continuation of the Lechmere sections of the following thread :

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?p=386705#post386705

[drstrange169]

Hello Gary,

>>This was the lawless East End where violence was commonplace and where street gangs had a reputation for ruthlessness<<

Indeed! Just days after the murder a gang fight took place in Buck's Row.

[Fisherman]

Hello Gary,

>>This was the lawless East End where violence was commonplace and where street gangs had a reputation for ruthlessness<<

Indeed! Just days after the murder a gang fight took place in Buck's Row.

Mmmm, that is correct. But I do not think that we may predispose that whenever there are violent people in a town (and there is in every town), people who testify at an inquest will serve up false names in order not to get harassed by thugs they have in no way offended, irritated or even mentioned.

And even if it was a common enough occurence not to state you real name on account of your knowledge that there was street violence in the East End, it would make poor sense to try and hide from it by furnishing information that would give you away anyway.

Nobody is contesting the fact that London and the East End had itīs share of street violence and gangs, Dusty. Thatīs not the problem here.

[harry]

What is the problem?

[Columbo]

The gang theory is interesting, but not feasible.

To get away from gangs as well (if he feared them) Lechmere only had to change his route to work.

I would suggest the answer we should really define is when did the police first speak to Lechmere after he and Paul reported it to Mizen? How did they know to talk to him specifically and how did he get on the inquest list?

If this has been addressed I apologize for the redundancy. I know we don't have inquest papers but it would be interesting to find out.

Columbo

[Fisherman]

What is the problem?

Whether it is feasible or not that the gangs would make Lechmere change his name to Cross (while not changing his address or working place) for fear of being harassed by the gans, in spite of not having said or done anything that should annoy them.
That was Garry Wroes suggestion, and I think it is not any good suggestion at all.

[Fisherman]

The gang theory is interesting, but not feasible.

To get away from gangs as well (if he feared them) Lechmere only had to change his route to work.

I would suggest the answer we should really define is when did the police first speak to Lechmere after he and Paul reported it to Mizen? How did they know to talk to him specifically and how did he get on the inquest list?

If this has been addressed I apologize for the redundancy. I know we don't have inquest papers but it would be interesting to find out.

Columbo

Lechmere would resaonably have contacted the police himself the evening before the inquest or on the inquest day itself, after having taken part of the Lloyds Weekly interwiew where Paul spoke of his presence at the murder spot.

[drstrange169]

>>The gang theory is interesting, but not feasible.<<

I don't rule it out but, agree it seems unlikely.

>>To get away from gangs as well (if he feared them) Lechmere only had to change his route to work.<<

I'm guessing you don't have much knowledge of how gangs dominate an area;-)

There's a lot of residents in gang-related areas who would love a solution that was that simple.


>>I would suggest the answer we should really define is when did the police first speak to Lechmere after he and Paul reported it to Mizen?<<

My guess again, and it is just that, is around one o'clock on the Saturday afternoon.

Press reports said police had some sort of clue at that time.

Xmere would be finishing work around that time.

And, after the break for lunch, Abberline spoke to Baxter about new evidence coming to light for Monday's inquest.

Checking Monday's inquest, the only "new" evidence presented was Xmere's story.


>>If this has been addressed I apologize for the redundancy. I know we don't have inquest papers but it would be interesting to find out.<<

It's been discussed, but it can't be addressed, as none of us knows for sure.

It would definitely be interesting to find out ... one day!?!

[Columbo]

Lechmere would resaonably have contacted the police himself the evening before the inquest or on the inquest day itself, after having taken part of the Lloyds Weekly interwiew where Paul spoke of his presence at the murder spot.

So this is the one from Friday night Lloyds of London:

On Friday night Mr. Robert Paul, a carman, on his return from work, made the following statement to our representative. He said :- It was exactly a quarter to four when I passed up Buck's-row to my work as a carman for Covent-garden market. It was dark, and I was hurrying along, when I saw a man standing where the woman was. He came a little towards me, but as I knew the dangerous character of the locality I tried to give him a wide berth. Few people like to come up and down here without being on their guard, for there are such terrible gangs about. There have been many knocked down and robbed at that spot. The man, however, came towards me and said, "Come and look at this woman." I went and found the woman lying on her back. I laid hold of her wrist and found that she was dead and the hands cold. It was too dark to see the blood about her. I thought that she had been outraged, and had died in the struggle. I was obliged to be punctual at my work, so I went on and told the other man I would send the first policeman I saw. I saw one in Church-row, just at the top of Buck's-row, who was going round calling people up, and I told him what I had seen, and I asked him to come, but he did not say whether he should come or not. He continued calling the people up, which I thought was a great shame, after I had told him the woman was dead. The woman was so cold that she must have been dead some time, and either she had been lying there, left to die, or she must have been murdered somewhere else and carried there. If she had been lying there long enough to get so cold as she was when I saw her, it shows that no policeman on the beat had been down there for a long time. If a policeman had been there he must have seen her, for she was plain enough to see. Her bonnet was lying about two feet from her head.

I've read this before. Paul gives a pretty detailed description. I wonder what made Cross decide he needed to contact anyone? He's only mentioned in passing and not even by name. This has all been re-hashed over and over so I know it's old hat. I'm trying to wrap my head around why, as a suspect, Lechmere would come forward? More to investigate!

Columbo

[harry]

I wonder if that was taken down,word for word,or did the representative compose a statement of interview some time after,from notes taken.

[Columbo]

I wonder if that was taken down,word for word,or did the representative compose a statement of interview some time after,from notes taken.

Good question Harry.

Columbo

[Scott Nelson]

And did Paul leave Cross and the body, or did Cross accompany Paul to find a policeman?

[drstrange169]

>>I wonder if that was taken down,word for word,or did the representative compose a statement of interview some time after,from notes taken.<<

Probably neither, the statement reads like, just that, a statement.

It has no natural flow or personal, Paul idioms, whatever they may have been.

Seems most likely to me, Robert Paul told the reporter his story, the reporter wrote it out as a statement covering the main points Paul made and said is that a correct account?

Much like the police did.

[Fisherman]

And did Paul leave Cross and the body, or did Cross accompany Paul to find a policeman?

Well, going by the inquest report in the Daily Telegraph, Paul testified that "The man walked with him to Montague-street, and there they saw a policeman."

The Times has Pauls testimony: "They agreed that the best thing they could do would be to tell the first policeman they met." So itīs "they".

Then again, the Morning Advertiser has Paul claiming "I sent the other man for a policeman", implicating that Robert Paul was left behind.

Weighing the different articles together, it seems to me that the pair left the body together in search for a PC.

[drstrange169]

The Morning Advertiser also ran Robert Paul's "statement" in which claimed he left Xmere with the body. Seems possible the reporter simply confused the two stories.