Lechmere Continuation Thread

[Fisherman]

Which pavement are you claiming was closed off they both are clearly open in the picture?

The pavement on the side opposite to the murder site, the northern one.

I do not care about the picture you have put up. I was there, I walked down the street, and I saw the closing off.

You were not. And you are willing to imply that I lie about it.

Look at the docu between 17.25 and 17.32, and you will see how the pavement is closed off and unaccessible.

Look at the passage where Andy and I arrive at the scene, between 18.42 and 18.45, where it is very clear that we are walking alongside a fencing off that allows us use of the southern pavement only.

How do you suppose that the re-enactment should be done? By leaping over the fence? We asked if we could take it away for a brief moment, but were denied that.

Itīs good to be able to show you just how wrong you are. I will engage no furthern in this particular errand, though, save to remind you in days to come how you got that wrong too.

Otherwise, I prefer not to stoop to your amoeba level of debate - you are so much more at home there that I run the risk of loosing when there is not picture evidence readily at hand.

[Fisherman]

>>I am claiming that you have proven yourself unable to make a semantical distinction between two very separate errands, and that you are therefore not to be relied upon in a discussion like this.<<

And this related to my post in anyway, how exactly?

Come to think of it, you just wrote you wouldn't respond any of my questions.
I guess i'm finally hitting home.

It is all very easy - if you cannot distinguish between very separate errands, mistaking them for the same (and you did exactly that) - I am in no shape or form willing to discuss with you. If you say "black" and your opponent says that you said "white", itīs time to call it a day and offer no further debate. It would be throwing pearls for pigs as the old saying goes.

[Columbo]

Hello Columbo,

>>Correct, and as Fisherman pointed out, he didn't have final say on the documentary's content.<<

I'm afraid this is a bit more of Christer's spin.

Ed Stow told me the production company knew the graphic was wrong but went ahead with it anyway, for continuity reasons. They wanted it to match Christer and Andy Grittihs renactment, which was on the wrong side of the road and next to where they placed the cardboard cutout of Nrs Nichols body.

If Ed is correct and I've never known him to lie, the problem arose because of Christer.

I didn't know that, but then again that kind of proves my point. The production company knew the graphic was wrong but proceeded anyway. They did it to make Cross look more ominous and guilty.

Now if Edward had told you that Christer knew the graphic was wrong but insisted the production company use it anyways that would be a problem with Christer's credibility, but since he wasn't involved with the post production or have say on the final cut, He shouldn't be blamed for it.

On the location in Bucks row, in retrospect it would've been more accurate but again the director on-site I'm sure was looking for the best shot and chose (rightly or wrongly) to shoot in a different location then the original murder site. Christer could shed some light on that. They could've filmed anywhere in Buck's Row at this point as the only thing that is original is the length of Buck's Row. The murder site no longer exists, so as long as they timed thier walk to the original site and reported that accurately, it wouldn't really matter where they filmed the cardboard cutout.

Columbo

[Columbo]

Yes, I assumed it was just me though!

Sometimes I have trouble following the thread in general.

Columbo

[Columbo]

>>The problem Edward was talking about was how we could not use the northern side of Bucks Row in the re-enactment, since it was shut off due to construction work.<<

As this still from the programme clearly shows, there was plenty of room a more accurate sequence.

That's a nice shot from video.

Columbo

[Columbo]

The pavement on the side opposite to the murder site, the northern one.

I do not care about the picture you have put up. I was there, I walked down the street, and I saw the closing off.

You were not. And you are willing to imply that I lie about it.

Look at the docu between 17.25 and 17.32, and you will see how the pavement is closed off and unaccessible.

Look at the passage where Andy and I arrive at the scene, between 18.42 and 18.45, where it is very clear that we are walking alongside a fencing off that allows us use of the southern pavement only.

How do you suppose that the re-enactment should be done? By leaping over the fence? We asked if we could take it away for a brief moment, but were denied that.

Itīs good to be able to show you just how wrong you are. I will engage no furthern in this particular errand, though, save to remind you in days to come how you got that wrong too.

Otherwise, I prefer not to stoop to your amoeba level of debate - you are so much more at home there that I run the risk of loosing when there is not picture evidence readily at hand.

There you go. Answered my recent post.

Columbo

[Fisherman]

I didn't know that, but then again that kind of proves my point. The production company knew the graphic was wrong but proceeded anyway. They did it to make Cross look more ominous and guilty.

Now if Edward had told you that Christer knew the graphic was wrong but insisted the production company use it anyways that would be a problem with Christer's credibility, but since he wasn't involved with the post production or have say on the final cut, He shouldn't be blamed for it.

On the location in Bucks row, in retrospect it would've been more accurate but again the director on-site I'm sure was looking for the best shot and chose (rightly or wrongly) to shoot in a different location then the original murder site. Christer could shed some light on that. They could've filmed anywhere in Buck's Row at this point as the only thing that is original is the length of Buck's Row. The murder site no longer exists, so as long as they timed thier walk to the original site and reported that accurately, it wouldn't really matter where they filmed the cardboard cutout.

Columbo

Actually, the murder site was very much there when we shot the docu, right close to the wall of the schoolhouse. The cardboard figure was laid out more or less exactly where Nichols was found. And there was no access to the other side of the street there, it was fenced off, leaving us with the southern pavement only, as is very clear from the docu.

As for the decisions about how to depict things, it was not something I had any influence over, although the team was very receptive and took great care to get as much of the details correct as possible.

Dustyīs posts on the errand are ill-informed, and he is doing himself no favours whatsoever by misrepresenting the facts. The fence was there, it is caught on camera, and that is all there is to it.

[Fisherman]

That's a nice shot from video.

Columbo

But it does not depict the stretch where Nichols was found. It does show, however, the gate into the biklding site, made by fencing. Everything but the southern pavement was out of bounds up there - which is where the murder spot lay.

[Fisherman]

There you go. Answered my recent post.

Columbo

And settles the errand. Discussion over, therefore.

[Columbo]

But it does not depict the stretch where Nichols was found. It does show, however, the gate into the biklding site, made by fencing. Everything but the southern pavement was out of bounds up there - which is where the murder spot lay.

I'd like to visit that one day. I noticed in the docu how well kept and nice that neighborhood seemed. I could be very wrong about that of course!

I really don't see any problem with the locations, etc with the docu. The most important thing about that entire scene was your timed walk. As long as that was presented accurately and not flubbed with in the final edits then you've made your point.

I've only seen one of the murder sites filmed as they were in 1888 and that was Hanbury Street (the famous James Mason clip). Even documentaries that proport to "re-create" the sites digitally with accurate lighting etc are not accurate in the least and never will be, unless they can be physically constructed with actual blueprints and other pictorial sources from the day.

I recall Trevor Marriotts docu and he visited the sites, basically saying " there's nothing like seeing an actual location and getting a feel for the surroundings". I'm paraphrasing of course. But the truth of the matter is it's not possible to do that except maybe with Buck's Row and that's very sketchy too. I believe Mitre's Square is a close second but the renovations to that make it almost un-recognizable from the contemporary pics. The sites are gone and there's almost nothing to glean from them except distance and walking times.

Anyway, I agree. Let's move on to something more interesting.

Columbo

[Fisherman]

Columbo: I'd like to visit that one day. I noticed in the docu how well kept and nice that neighborhood seemed. I could be very wrong about that of course!

You are not wrong, the neighbourhood is not bad at all. Perhaps more interesting is how there is material pointing to how Bucks Row was very neat and clean in 1888 too, far from the descriptions of for example Dorset Street.

I really don't see any problem with the locations, etc with the docu. The most important thing about that entire scene was your timed walk. As long as that was presented accurately and not flubbed with in the final edits then you've made your point.

Mmmm. But points well made are not what some look for.

I've only seen one of the murder sites filmed as they were in 1888 and that was Hanbury Street (the famous James Mason clip). Even documentaries that proport to "re-create" the sites digitally with accurate lighting etc are not accurate in the least and never will be, unless they can be physically constructed with actual blueprints and other pictorial sources from the day.

Iīve seen the sites for a number of decades, and some of them have been very atmospheric, like Durward Street and Mitre Square. The spots are under constant reconstruction, though, so the genuine feel will be gone in the future. Sorry, but there you are!
There are many streets that offer Victorian atmosphere nevertheless, but none of them are Ripper murder streets.

I recall Trevor Marriotts docu and he visited the sites, basically saying " there's nothing like seeing an actual location and getting a feel for the surroundings". I'm paraphrasing of course. But the truth of the matter is it's not possible to do that except maybe with Buck's Row and that's very sketchy too. I believe Mitre's Square is a close second but the renovations to that make it almost un-recognizable from the contemporary pics. The sites are gone and there's almost nothing to glean from them except distance and walking times.

What remains is how you are able to take in how small the area was, but otherwise, I agree by and large; the sites are no longer as representative as they used to be.

Anyway, I agree. Let's move on to something more interesting.

How about the post I made on the knife skills involved in both the Ripper and the Torso series?

[Columbo]

Columbo: I'd like to visit that one day. I noticed in the docu how well kept and nice that neighborhood seemed. I could be very wrong about that of course!

You are not wrong, the neighbourhood is not bad at all. Perhaps more interesting is how there is material pointing to how Bucks Row was very neat and clean in 1888 too, far from the descriptions of for example Dorset Street.

I really don't see any problem with the locations, etc with the docu. The most important thing about that entire scene was your timed walk. As long as that was presented accurately and not flubbed with in the final edits then you've made your point.

Mmmm. But points well made are not what some look for.

I've only seen one of the murder sites filmed as they were in 1888 and that was Hanbury Street (the famous James Mason clip). Even documentaries that proport to "re-create" the sites digitally with accurate lighting etc are not accurate in the least and never will be, unless they can be physically constructed with actual blueprints and other pictorial sources from the day.

Iīve seen the sites for a number of decades, and some of them have been very atmospheric, like Durward Street and Mitre Square. The spots are under constant reconstruction, though, so the genuine feel will be gone in the future. Sorry, but there you are!
There are many streets that offer Victorian atmosphere nevertheless, but none of them are Ripper murder streets.

I recall Trevor Marriotts docu and he visited the sites, basically saying " there's nothing like seeing an actual location and getting a feel for the surroundings". I'm paraphrasing of course. But the truth of the matter is it's not possible to do that except maybe with Buck's Row and that's very sketchy too. I believe Mitre's Square is a close second but the renovations to that make it almost un-recognizable from the contemporary pics. The sites are gone and there's almost nothing to glean from them except distance and walking times.

What remains is how you are able to take in how small the area was, but otherwise, I agree by and large; the sites are no longer as representative as they used to be.

Anyway, I agree. Let's move on to something more interesting.

How about the post I made on the knife skills involved in both the Ripper and the Torso series?

That would be a fine discussion. We've seem to have pumped the well dry as far as everything else. I don't much about the torso killings and would find that very enligtening to see if we can discuss and possibly link them.

Columbo

[Fisherman]

That would be a fine discussion. We've seem to have pumped the well dry as far as everything else. I don't much about the torso killings and would find that very enligtening to see if we can discuss and possibly link them.

Columbo

Believe me - we can...

[Columbo]

Believe me - we can...

Since I know close to nothing about them, I'll let someone else start with this question:

Why do people think they're connected?

Columbo

[John G]

Since I know close to nothing about them, I'll let someone else start with this question:

Why do people think they're connected?

Columbo

I don't!