8 September 1889

[jerryd]

[QUOTE=Pierre;374690]

A lot of places in Whitechapel looked like "What a place for a murder that would be". -Pierre-

True, but the according to the story, the Pinchin Street arch where the torso was found was the place referred to.

Charles LeGrand was also in prison at the time.

Hi,

Yes, I get your point but "the whole picture" is the picture of the ripperological field.

It is not the picture the murderer had in his head and it is not a picture of the murderer.

Kind regards, Pierre

The very source you quoted to open this thread has errors and has been mis-interpreted over the years, but it was that source that I was able to find more information on John Arnold, Dennis Lynch and John Cleary. They are not one and the same man. If I didn't have that source to start with though, I would have never pieced together what I feel is a more accurate story for John Arnold in my own mind. How would you have started this thread without someone's prior research into John Arnold? The field is progressing. We are finding new information. You seem to be saying we are stuck in our ways and hard headed, which I heartily disagree.

I can't agree with your last line either until I have details, which I know you will not share until you pick all of our ripperologist brains until you get the last and final piece of evidence damning your police official. If you don't want to be influenced by the field of ripperology as if we will taint and distort your ability of finding the killer, why are you here, Pierre? Are you just here to point out the error of our ways?

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=jerryd;374689]A lot of places in Whitechapel looked like "What a place for a murder that would be". -Pierre-

True, but the according to the story, the Pinchin Street arch where the torso was found was the place referred to.

Charles LeGrand was also in prison at the time.

My point in bringing him into this is complicated. One needs to understand the underlying details of each of these people and cases to get the whole picture. Trying to understand from a few dissertations here and there does not present the whole picture.

Hi,

Yes, I get your point but "the whole picture" is the picture of the ripperological field. So it is the picture of the producers of ripperology.

But that is not the picture the murderer had in his head and it is not a picture of the murderer.

Kind regards, Pierre

[jerryd]

A lot of places in Whitechapel looked like "What a place for a murder that would be". -Pierre-

True, but the according to the story, the Pinchin Street arch where the torso was found was the place referred to.

Charles LeGrand was also in prison at the time. My point in bringing him into this is complicated. One needs to understand the underlying details of each of these people and cases to get the whole picture. Trying to understand from a few dissertations here and there does not present the whole picture.

Thanks for the reply.

[Pierre]

Not sure how you think I have interpreted the coincidences I have put forward? I have summarized contemporary sources, some MEPO and some news papers, and the reader can come to his own conclusion. You happened to pick the one that best fits with your police official.

Hi,

Well, I donīt know how you interpret the coincidences. Anyway, here are my interpretations:

[Coincidence]At the end of August, early September 1889, Texas journalist R. Harding Davis accompanied Inspector Henry Moore around Whitechapel and toured the murder sites. On their way back to Leman Street station they passed the very arches where the Pinchin torso was deposited. Moore remarked "Now, what a place for a murder that would be." A week later, the Pinchin torso was found. Then comes the John Arnold story and his lucky guess of a body deposited in Back Church Lane two days before it was deposited under the arches. His initial remark was that he obtained his information from a Police Inspector on Whitechapel High Street. I guess he may have overheard Harding's story being hashed over by some policemen. But somebody acted on the story two days later.

A lot of places in Whitechapel looked like "What a place for a murder that would be".

[Coincidence] John Arnold and William Wallace Brodie shared the same address in the Strand [2, Harvey's Buildings], very near the New Scotland Yard Building. Brodie claimed he was one of the Whitechapel murderers.

A claim made after the murders, not predicting any murder, and he wasnīt guilty.

[Coincidence]Mr. Mellor, who became alerted when he heard the name "John Cleary" mentioned, stated he thought it was a man he knew that worked as a compositor for The Globe. He gave a full description of Cleary. A completely different man than John Arnold. Mr. Mellor is also the same man that found the thigh of Elizabeth Jackson in the garden of the Shelley estate.

First he was wrong, and then he was unlucky.

[Coincidence]There was graffitti chalked up on the dead walls near the Pinchin arches that stated "John Cleary is a fool"

After the finding.

[Coincidence]On a black paling opposite the arch where the trunk was found the word "Lipski" was written in large chalk letters. The People,Sept 15, 1889(located by Rob Clack)

After the finding and more than a year after the double event, which a lot of people had read about in the newspapers.

[Coincidence] The Private detective office of Charles LeGrand was located at #10 Agar Street in 1889. His address backed up to #2 Harvey's Buildings.

He was a tall man according to The Times. Source: http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-legrand.html

[Coincidence] The shoeblack, Michael Keating, one of three men found under the arches in the morning the body was discovered in Pinchin Street gave his address at 1, Osborn-street, Brick-lane. Ted Stanley said he heard of the murder of Annie Chapman from a shoeblack. Stanley was living at 1, Osborn street.

People living in an area tend to move around in that area and to talk to other people living in the same area.

Regards, Pierre

[jerryd]

Postmodernism is not a way forward. Just because history has been strongly biased by individual perspectives, that does not mean the sources from the past can be interpreted in any way we want.

Regards, Pierre

Not sure how you think I have interpreted the coincidences I have put forward? I have summarized contemporary sources, some MEPO and some news papers, and the reader can come to his own conclusion. You happened to pick the one that best fits with your police official.

[Pierre]

Of no importance to you or me?

Postmodernism is not a way forward. Just because history has been strongly biased by individual perspectives, that does not mean the sources from the past can be interpreted in any way we want.

Regards, Pierre

[jerryd]

Hi John,

The coincidences you list are of no importance for understanding the murders. The fact that Arnold was living at The Strand, and also near King William Street, is the only established fact that has any importance, since this means there was some probability that Arnold would some time happen to see or meet the killer.



Regards, Pierre

Of no importance to you or me?

[Pierre]

The supposed pensioner was identified as Ted Stanley. It has been speculated that he was not a pensioner at all.



As far as John Arnold goes, I personally believe his story was not coincidental. I say that because of other circumstances tied in with his story that also seem coincidental. When you put these stories together, they may result in some truth.

[Coincidence]At the end of August, early September 1889, Texas journalist R. Harding Davis accompanied Inspector Henry Moore around Whitechapel and toured the murder sites. On their way back to Leman Street station they passed the very arches where the Pinchin torso was deposited. Moore remarked "Now, what a place for a murder that would be." A week later, the Pinchin torso was found. Then comes the John Arnold story and his lucky guess of a body deposited in Back Church Lane two days before it was deposited under the arches. His initial remark was that he obtained his information from a Police Inspector on Whitechapel High Street. I guess he may have overheard Harding's story being hashed over by some policemen. But somebody acted on the story two days later.

[Coincidence] John Arnold and William Wallace Brodie shared the same address in the Strand [2, Harvey's Buildings], very near the New Scotland Yard Building. Brodie claimed he was one of the Whitechapel murderers.

[Coincidence]Mr. Mellor, who became alerted when he heard the name "John Cleary" mentioned, stated he thought it was a man he knew that worked as a compositor for The Globe. He gave a full description of Cleary. A completely different man than John Arnold. Mr. Mellor is also the same man that found the thigh of Elizabeth Jackson in the garden of the Shelley estate.

[Coincidence]There was graffitti chalked up on the dead walls near the Pinchin arches that stated "John Cleary is a fool"

[Coincidence]On a black paling opposite the arch where the trunk was found the word "Lipski" was written in large chalk letters. The People,Sept 15, 1889(located by Rob Clack)

[Coincidence] The Private detective office of Charles LeGrand was located at #10 Agar Street in 1889. His address backed up to #2 Harvey's Buildings.

[Coincidence] The shoeblack, Michael Keating, one of three men found under the arches in the morning the body was discovered in Pinchin Street gave his address at 1, Osborn-street, Brick-lane. Ted Stanley said he heard of the murder of Annie Chapman from a shoeblack. Stanley was living at 1, Osborn street.

Pierre, do you ever use the search function before you start a thread?

Hi John,

The coincidences you list are of no importance for understanding the murders. The fact that Arnold was living at The Strand, and also near King William Street, is the only established fact that has any importance, since this means there was some probability that Arnold would some time happen to see or meet the killer.



Regards, Pierre

[John G]

Hi John,

I understand.

But, when we couple the news of the graffiti, with the fact Scotland Yard was looking for a man named John Cleary in regard to the story of a body in Back Church Lane, doesn't it corroborate the article a little more for you?

Hi Jerry,

Yes!

[jerryd]

Hi Jerry,

Thanks for this, although personally, I'm always weary about fully accepting newspaper reports!

Hi John,

I understand.

But, when we couple the news of the graffiti, with the fact Scotland Yard was looking for a man named John Cleary in regard to the story of a body in Back Church Lane, doesn't it corroborate the article a little more for you?

[John G]

Times 13th September 1889

The detectives are searching for a man named Leary or Cleary, who on Sunday last went to a newspaper office and reported that a woman had been murdered in Backchurch-lane, Whitechapel. A full description of this man has been obtained, and it is confidently believed that before many hours his whereabouts will be known. A singular circumstance is that on many dead walls near the scene of the discovery are the words, written in chalk, "John Cleary is a fool." These words were seen early on Tuesday morning, and before anything was known of the man's visit to the newspaper office.

Hi Jerry,

Thanks for this, although personally, I'm always weary about fully accepting newspaper reports!

[Mayerling]

Jeff,

Thanks for the correction. You are absolutely right. Not sure why I said Texas. I was looking at press reports on the Servant Girl Annihilator in Austin previously, so maybe that's why?

Hello jerryd,

Harding had published a report of how the Chief of Police of Austin, Texas had been to London to see the head of Scotland Yard and were comparing notes on the Austin Annihilator and Jack. I believe that is the connection.

Jeff

[jerryd]

Jeff,

Thanks for the correction. You are absolutely right. Not sure why I said Texas. I was looking at press reports on the Servant Girl Annihilator in Austin previously, so maybe that's why?

[jerryd]

Hi Jerry,

But, as far as I'm aware, the only source material for the "John Cleary is a fool" claim is R Michael Gordon's book which, in my opinion, is one of the worst true crime books ever written!

Times 13th September 1889

The detectives are searching for a man named Leary or Cleary, who on Sunday last went to a newspaper office and reported that a woman had been murdered in Backchurch-lane, Whitechapel. A full description of this man has been obtained, and it is confidently believed that before many hours his whereabouts will be known. A singular circumstance is that on many dead walls near the scene of the discovery are the words, written in chalk, "John Cleary is a fool." These words were seen early on Tuesday morning, and before anything was known of the man's visit to the newspaper office.

[John G]

http://casebook.org/official_documen...t_chapman.html

And also, wasnīt there some statements about Annie Chapman having been seen with a man looking like a "soldier"?

Yes. According to The Daily Telegraph (we donīt have the original inquest papers for Chapman), Timothy Donovan stated:

"She (Chapman) used to come and stay at the lodging-house on Saturdays with a man - a pensioner - of soldierly appearance, whose name I do not know" (my underscore).

And George Hutchinson was also described as being of "military appearance", but I doubt he was a soldier either! It's what I would call weak evidential support, but unfortunately some writers have constructed whole theories based upon such evidence.