Jack the Ripper & The Torso Murders

[Lewis C]

Here you go John Wheat. James Kelly (your Ripper) and John Arnold (probable torso involvement) all under one roof. Of course, I semi-joke about this being THE James Kelly.

Hi Jerry,

His Ripper? I think it's more like his distant 2nd choice. Do you know the date of that document?

[Lewis C]

Hi Lewis C

I don't think that the Torso Killer and Jack were the same person. So solving the Torso case won't help at all.

I'm not sure I agree with your point that not all but most of the best suspects in the case are either known murderers or people known to be violent. But I see your point. I make no secret of my belief that Bury was the Ripper. But I think if Bury wasn't the Ripper then it is likely to be Kelly.

Cheers John

Hi John,

I'm open to the possibility that JtR could have committed some of the Torso murders, but right now, I tend to doubt it.

Bury is my top suspect too, but where I think that we differ is that you said you believe Bury was the Ripper, whereas I think the odds are against any one of the named suspects being the Ripper, but the odds aren't as long for Bury as for any of the others.

[jerryd]

hi jer
im having a hard time picturing a victim going willingly in there at night time. whats your thoughts specifically on what happened to tje whitehall victim? two men lured her in under guise of a sex for money ? she was attacked by two men outside and they carried her in and cut her up in there? amd dosnt parts being wrapped in newspaper not make sense in these type scenarios?

isnt more likely she was killed and cut up somewhere else and brought in parts, parts wrapped in newspaper and her own clothes? (whether one man or more).

wildbore knew those vaults well, discovered the body and as you pointed out his route to the NSY from his home is right by where parts were found and thrown in the river from.

imho he is the best suspect we have for torsoman. would anything rule him out from being the ripper as well?

Abby,

It's really hard to even guess how one lured a woman in there. If that's what even happened? I just have a hunch, based on fairly good evidence, that she was either killed AND dismembered in there, or at least dismembered in there.

As far as being wrapped in newspaper. If his intent was to have parts of the body discovered but remain unidentifiable, the clothing wrap would be a bad idea. It was that mistake that partly led to the ID of Elizabeth Jackson. He got smart by Pinchin torso and left no trace of clothing, except an old chemise.

Yes, one likely route Wildbore would trek home from NSY was direct in the path of many body parts.

Nothing rules him out that I have found. Nothing rules him in either. One slight clue that is interesting is in the Alice McKenzie case. She stated she was going out again to meet a man she knew from Tottenham. Wildbore lived at one time in Tottenham. He was also from the same general area near Peterborough that Alice was from.

As far as him being a navvy? I wouldn't exactly say he fits in that category. He was a carpenter by trade and worked for a construction firm who was building the NSY building. The Board of Works oversaw that project, but he did not work directly for them. But, we only know from the Jackson case that the witness stated the man had the appearance of a navvy. Probably the rough hat and moleskin trousers. That description fits a carpenter as well.

[jerryd]

Hi Lewis C

I don't think that the Torso Killer and Jack were the same person. So solving the Torso case won't help at all.

I'm not sure I agree with your point that not all but most of the best suspects in the case are either known murderers or people known to be violent. But I see your point. I make no secret of my belief that Bury was the Ripper. But I think if Bury wasn't the Ripper then it is likely to be Kelly.

Cheers John

Here you go John Wheat. James Kelly (your Ripper) and John Arnold (probable torso involvement) all under one roof. Of course, I semi-joke about this being THE James Kelly.

[John Wheat]

Yes, I think that the only way that solving the Torso case would help in solving the Ripper case is if JtR is the Torsoman, or one of them. If he isn't, I don't see how solving the torso case helps at all.

I'd say that not all, but most of the best suspects in the case are either known murderers - Bury, Kelly, Chapman, and Deeming - or people known to be violent, such as Levy, Cohen, and LeGrand.

Hi Lewis C

I don't think that the Torso Killer and Jack were the same person. So solving the Torso case won't help at all.

I'm not sure I agree with your point that not all but most of the best suspects in the case are either known murderers or people known to be violent. But I see your point. I make no secret of my belief that Bury was the Ripper. But I think if Bury wasn't the Ripper then it is likely to be Kelly.

Cheers John

[Lewis C]

The coincidences do not mount up. The idea The Ripper and the Torso Killer are one and the same is pure speculation. The Ripper case is a separate case and the idea that solving the Torso murders first and then come at the Ripper from a different angle is the only way to progress the case is ridiculous. In my opinion the best way to progress the Ripper case is to get rid of all the stupid theories and look at suspects that could have actually been the Ripper. I suggest violent murderers such as Bury and Kelly.

Yes, I think that the only way that solving the Torso case would help in solving the Ripper case is if JtR is the Torsoman, or one of them. If he isn't, I don't see how solving the torso case helps at all.

I'd say that not all, but most of the best suspects in the case are either known murderers - Bury, Kelly, Chapman, and Deeming - or people known to be violent, such as Levy, Cohen, and LeGrand.

[The Rookie Detective]

The torso cases in the 1870s are not close to Bucks Row.



Not in the immediate vicinity of Bucks Row RD.

Your suggestion appears to be that the sites were chosen because of recent construction work at the sites, and such does not really hold true for Bucks Row.



Again, while it was recent, it was not that recent that a worker was likely to be still around, but of course. That's a debatable point.



Always good to debate with you.

Steve

Ah, my apologies Steve, for the Great Eastern Railway, I was referring to the Pinchin St torso and Frances Coles, and not Nichols and Bucks Row.

That was my error for lacking clarity in my comments.

I concede to your comment regarding Nichols and Bucks Row and so the Nichols murder cannot be included in my hypothesis regarding any recent construction.

Thank you for correcting me on that point, as I can't argue against being corrected.

My Great Eastern railway comment refers specifically to the Pinchin Street Torso and Frances Coles, ergo, a Torso victim and alleged Ripper victim discovered under arches of the same stretch of Great Eastern Railway.

The alleged attempted Ripper style attack on Emily Smith on the 5th November 1892 was also committed under an archway on the same stretch of Great Eastern Railway...and at the time the Shadwell station was under construction and partially boarded off.

The attack on Emily Smith supports my hypothesis and along with Frances Coles and the Pinchin Street torso, links the Great Eastern railway with construction of archways/extension of Trainline/building of new station.

Going back to Nichols, I will omit the connection/link from my hypothesis, because I stand corrected by your brilliant post.
Nichols being murdered next to the Trainline isn't enough to warrant inclusion and if it isn't right then I am happy to rethink.

Regards

RD

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve

That is partially correct yes, the train line near Nichols was constructed over a decade before...but the murders committed by the Torso killer in the 1870's arguably fall around that time (I would need to check my notes sorry)

The torso cases in the 1870s are not close to Bucks Row.

In terms of sections of the Great Eastern Railway, the section running out of Liverpool Street towards Bethnal Green in particular, was still in the process of being extended/widened at the time of the murders.

Not in the immediate vicinity of Bucks Row RD.

Your suggestion appears to be that the sites were chosen because of recent construction work at the sites, and such does not really hold true for Bucks Row.

The archway under which the Pinchin Street torso was placed, was recently constructed; perhaps not in terms of the physical railway line, but certainly the structural archway itself.

The clue therefore is not the railway line as such, but the archway.

Again, while it was recent, it was not that recent that a worker was likely to be still around, but of course. That's a debatable point.

The Whitehall Torso was also placed under an arched section of the cellar.


But I do accept your points because I am aware of the fact that your overall knowledge of this case surpasses my own, and so I would be wise to take your comments on board.

Regards


RD

Always good to debate with you.

Steve

[The Rookie Detective]

It should be noted that the recently constructed railways were not really that recent.
In Bucks Row for instance, the District line extension was up and running several years before 1888, and the North south line was over a decade before.

In all probability, the workforce that constructed those lines was long gone, the same also applies to the works in Pinchin St and Swallow Gardens.

Steve

Hi Steve

That is partially correct yes, the train line near Nichols was constructed over a decade before...but the murders committed by the Torso killer in the 1870's arguably fall around that time (I would need to check my notes sorry)

In terms of sections of the Great Eastern Railway, the section running out of Liverpool Street towards Bethnal Green in particular, was still in the process of being extended/widened at the time of the murders.

The archway under which the Pinchin Street torso was placed, was recently constructed; perhaps not in terms of the physical railway line, but certainly the structural archway itself.

The clue therefore is not the railway line as such, but the archway.

The Whitehall Torso was also placed under an arched section of the cellar.

But I do accept your points because I am aware of the fact that your overall knowledge of this case surpasses my own, and so I would be wise to take your comments on board.

Regards


RD

[John Wheat]

I value your comments John, and I welcome our difference of opinion on this particular matter.

Your views are equally as valid as mine of course, and I appreciate your stance; because I believe that being in disagreement is an integral part of keeping one's mind open and objective.

In terms of the 2 cases being separate; I too once believed that and so I have had the bonus of sitting on both sides of the fence at one time or another.

Regards

RD

Fair enough RD

We will agree to disagree on this particular matter. I would like to add that it is interesting that there is far less interest in the Torso murders by the general public than the Ripper murders. I think on this site there may be the chance that some good suspects may be named for The Torso murders. Although obviously I don't believe that any were Jack the Ripper as well.

Cheers John

[Elamarna]

Yes, exactly what Steve said.

Think of a civil service builder who is contracted to carry out building works on the infrastructure, specifically the railway and canal ways...but could also incorporate tramways and roadways.

That said, a Navvy is an umbrella term and Navvies could be Engineers, Stone Masons, Builders etc...

Navvy is literally short for Navigator, ergo, a person who navigates a new path through construction.

It's also rather curious that in the autumn of 1888, huge construction work was going on in Commercial Street; namely the construction of the new tramway.

There was also continued extensions of the Railway, under which both Coles (Ripper) and Pinchin St Torso (Torso Killer) were found shortly after the archways of the Great Eastern Railway had been built...on the same stretch of railway.

There was also the new District line which ran almost parallel with the Whitechapel Road.
Charles Reeves, the founding member of the WVC himself had to uproot his family in the early 1880's and move back to Mile End after the construction of the new station meant his house was demolished. He used to live within 100 yards of the Nichols murder site and his daughter who went on to become a famous actress attended the board school in Bucks Row.

But going back to the Navvy....

What ties all this together is the Board of Works who were responsible for signing off these major infrastructure builds.
The Pinchin St torso was dumped next to the Stone Breaking yard owned by the Board of Works.

The Whitehall torso was dumped in the newly constructed archway forming the foundations of a construction site...the use of Stone would have been incorporated and specialist builders would have been required to work on such a big project.

Then we have George Lusk...

A builder who renovated theatres
A man who previously worked for the board of works
And a man who lead because the focus of the Rippers alleged correspondences.

As much as I admire John Wheat for his knowledge of the case, his choice to dismiss any possible connection between the 2 cases is quite remarkable considering the many pieces of individual evidence that collate to support that there is a link.

I know it makes some feel uncomfortable, but when you take a step back and look at things from outside the box, the coincidences continue to mount up.

Jerry's work on the Board of Works and both his and Debra's exceptional work on the torso case, really does open up the case for the bigger picture that it really is.

The idea that there cannot be any link at all between the 2 cases stems from the romanticism that the Ripper case has created over the decades.

The argument that the killers had different M.O's is an age old excuse that no longer threads water and the archaic concept that the Ripper was a Canonical 5 only man is a thing of the past.

The only way to progress in the The Ripper case, is to try and solve the Torso murders first and then come at the Ripper from a different angle.

RD

It should be noted that the recently constructed railways were not really that recent.
In Bucks Row for instance, the District line extension was up and running several years before 1888, and the North south line was over a decade before.

As you correctly say, the workforce moved around the country, and were transient.

In all probability, the workforce that constructed those lines was long gone, the same also applies to the works in Pinchin St and Swallow Gardens.


Steve

[The Rookie Detective]

thanks el and RD. jackson was last seen talking to a Navvy correct? wildbore was basically a navvy no?

Jerry is the person to clarify that, but I would imagine so.

But in context, it's important to realize that Navvies numbered in their thousands, and even though the term Navvy officially referred to those who built the railways and canals, it became an umbrella term for those builders who worked on major civil service building projects...like building a new police HQ for example.

Another key aspect of being labeled a Navvy; was the nature of their lifestyle.
A Navvy would typically be the kind of person who would go around the country looking for work and would live a transient lifestyle as a result.

It's also important to note that whenever a big building project was commissioned and given the go-ahead by the Board of Works, the area would see a major influx of Navvies that would pour into the area and take over many of the lodging houses.

The Tramway construction on Commercial St, the extension of the railway line running through Whitechapel, and the construction and extension of the Great Eastern Railway line; all these large-scale civil building projects would have drawn in thousands of Navvies from all over the country.

How did this impact the Whitechapel and Spitalfields areas at the time of this relatively acute influx of Navvies?


RD

[Abby Normal]

Hi RD.

You've brought up some interesting points in a couple of these threads. Thanks for being open minded. Some of the points you bring up I have speculated about myself. Others, I have a different point of view, but along the same line of thinking as you.

With that, I believe in more than one person involved in these cases working together. I believe the Whitehall torso was moved around also, but for a different reason and starting location. I feel the sub-basement of the Police Building or the ground within the construction fences may have been the location of the murder itself. Her clothing was scattered about the construction site. I think her skull may be buried somewhere in that ground. I think the body was moved from within the sub-basement to where it was found, so it COULD be found. The "John Arnold" type announcement coincided with Wildbore holding off finally announcing the odd package to his superiors. He was in the vault Monday morning at 6:00 a.m and said he saw what he thought was a workman's coat in that corner of the vault. He said nothing to anyone. He went back in the vault at 5:30 p.m that same evening and said he saw the parcel there and drew his mate's attention to it by lighting a wax vesta. Neither man mentioned anything to anyone at this point. The next morning, Tuesday, he was again in the vault in the morning and saw the parcel and again said nothing. Then he says at 1:00 (2:30 according to other witnesses) Mr. Brown, the assistant foreman, came to see him in the vault. It was then that he pointed the parcel out to Brown. To me, that's odd behavior. Some press reports state Wildbore said it had a foul odor. Most reports don't say anything about a stench. One report states the trunk appeared to have been treated by Condy's Fluid. That could mask the stench somewhat, I guess.

I believe, personally, in Dr. Neville's report and DoD. Which is sometime around the 8th or 9th of September.

Last we have the strange case of William Wallace Brodie, the self-professed murderer of Alice McKenzie who stated he was "one of the Whitechapel murderers". Take this next bit for what it's worth, but to me it means something. I just don't know what exactly?

William Wallace Brodie was released from Portland Gaol on August 22nd, 1888. He arrived at Waterloo station and took lodging at No. 2, Harvey's Buildings, Strand. On September 5th, 1888 he reported to the convict office (as required on license) and stated his intention of leaving for Cape of Good Hope. A record check with the Union Steamship company by Sgt. E.C Bradshaw confirmed Brodie was a passenger on the Union ship, SS Athenian, leaving Southampton on September 6, 1888 as a 3rd class passenger. Surprisingly, aboard that same ship were the Hon. Spencer Lyttleton and Lady Frederick Cavendish (Lucy Caroline Lyttleton). Lady Cavendish was the widow of Frederick Cavendish who was murdered in Phoenix Park in 1882. She and Spencer (her brother) had another brother named Albert that was a clergyman in Kimberley. Interesting that Kimberley is exactly where Brodie ended up. Brodie's return passage, of course, was in July of 1889, two days before the murder of Alice McKenzie. Brodie returned on the SS Trojan and worked his passage back as a fireman. He returned to his old lodging at No. 2, Harvey's Buildings. Also living at the same exact address, No. 2 Harvey's Buildings, was John Arnold of Pinchin torso fame. How is that for a coincidence?

hi jer
im having a hard time picturing a victim going willingly in there at night time. whats your thoughts specifically on what happened to tje whitehall victim? two men lured her in under guise of a sex for money ? she was attacked by two men outside and they carried her in and cut her up in there? amd dosnt parts being wrapped in newspaper not make sense in these type scenarios?

isnt more likely she was killed and cut up somewhere else and brought in parts, parts wrapped in newspaper and her own clothes? (whether one man or more).

wildbore knew those vaults well, discovered the body and as you pointed out his route to the NSY from his home is right by where parts were found and thrown in the river from.

imho he is the best suspect we have for torsoman. would anything rule him out from being the ripper as well?

[The Rookie Detective]

The coincidences do not mount up. The idea The Ripper and the Torso Killer are one and the same is pure speculation. The Ripper case is a separate case and the idea that solving the Torso murders first and then come at the Ripper from a different angle is the only way to progress the case is ridiculous. In my opinion the best way to progress the Ripper case is to get rid of all the stupid theories and look at suspects that could have actually been the Ripper. I suggest violent murderers such as Bury and Kelly.

I value your comments John, and I welcome our difference of opinion on this particular matter.

Your views are equally as valid as mine of course, and I appreciate your stance; because I believe that being in disagreement is an integral part of keeping one's mind open and objective.

In terms of the 2 cases being separate; I too once believed that and so I have had the bonus of sitting on both sides of the fence at one time or another.

Regards

RD

[Abby Normal]

thanks el and RD. jackson was last seen talking to a Navvy correct? wildbore was basically a navvy no?