Jack the Ripper & The Torso Murders

[Fiver]

But there are no examples of two eviscerating sexual serial killers who in the same area and time have produced a set of similarities of the very rare kind we have in these two series.

You continue to ignore Edmund Kemper and Herbert Mullin. The police didn't even realize they had two serial killers until Mullin was apprehended and the killings continued.

And you continue to ignore the period police and doctors, the ones who actually saw the victims bodies, who didn't see your imagined similarities, and who concluded there were two different serial killers.

[Fiver]

Well, well, you are back! Who would have thought it?

That's pretty ironic for you to say about Herlock. How many time have you posted that you were leaving a thread forever?

[Fiver]

The only torso that was thought to have been manually carried to its dumping site was the Pinchin Street torso, wherefore the police sought the immediate neighbourhood of the railway arch.That is the only evidence we have about where the killer was based.

You repeating false statements does not make them true. All of the body parts could have been manually carried to their dumping sites. The Battersea Park, Shelley Estate, and Whitehall remains are clear known dump sites, but you ignore them because they do not fit your theory.

[Fiver]

Hi Herlock,

this common claim about the 'rarity' of serial killers working side-by-side in the same time & place doesn't carry any weight among people who grew up in the Pacific Northwest in the 1970s-1990s.

In Seattle alone, there must have been nearly a dozen of these reprobates whose murders overlapped. Some lived in the area for years--others just passed through--including Ted Bundy, the Green River Killer, Robert Lee Yates, etc. Along, of course, with "one-off" murders by other depraved individuals.

And Seattle had 1/5th the population of Victorian London.

I give no credence whatsoever to this line of thinking.

RP

Santa Clara, California of the 1970s had a population of less than 1/50th the population of Victorian London.

[Fiver]

Sorry for sounding dense [ and I haven't really been following this thread ], but am I missing something here ?

Whoever [ in my opinion ] , committed the torso crimes [ whether it was one or more people ], would have almost certainly have had to have access to some private dwelling, to dismember the bodies , clean the scene up in case of visitors or smell say, and transport the body parts, perhaps over a number of days from. Now if torso was Jack and Jack was Lech where did Lech have this private abode ?. He worked at Pickfords so very unlikely there and he lived on Doveton st etc with a wife and family, so impossible I would say at home. And where did the money come from [ if indeed he did have a safe and secure place ] to have a private dwelling in the cramped and confined east end. Again apologies if I have missed something .

Regards Darryl

Exactly. There's no way Lechmere could have hidden whole decaying bodies from his family. Just hiding trophy organs in from a house full of children would have been nigh impossible.

[FrankO]

hi frank
i dont follow. we have no idea how long he had whitehall body or parts at his place. if he did at all. i think more than likely she was murdered and cut up in his chop shop, but jerry sees evidence that she may have actually been murdered and cut up on site, or murdered nearby and brought in and then cut up.

my opinion has always been if they were the same man, the ripper victims were when his chop shop and or cart wasnt available and he had to kill on the streets. its a simple and reasonable explanation.

Hi Abby,

As I indicated, I base what I wrote on what the medical men that saw part(s) of the body, said about the estimated time of death. Hebbert's overall opinion was somewhere between the beginning of August and the beginning of September. Neville thought the person whose arm he saw on 11 September had been dead for 3 or 4 days (if I'm not mistaken) which would mean around 8 September.

This fact alone shows that Torso Man did have some private place where he killed the Whitehall victim. But he nevertheless went ahead and killed Chapman out in the open.

Futhermore, the torso was discovered on 2 October, so at least the torso and the leg found 2 weeks later had to have been stored somewhere. Of course, it's possible that the Whitehall victim was killed & cut up at the Whitehall construction site, but it seems odd to me that nobody noticed a thing until weekse later. I have to admit that don't have the in-depth knowledge that Jerry has on the subject, so I'd have to delve into it to see how he explains those parts were not seen/found earlier.

Cheers,
Frank

[Fiver]

hi dk
admins have asked us to keep lech out of it. if you ask this on a lech thread, id be happy to give my thoughts on it there.

Admins asked to keep Lechmere out of the Paris Torso thread.

[Abby Normal]

Admins asked to keep Lechmere out of the Paris Torso thread.

oh ok. thank you for correction.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

As I indicated, I base what I wrote on what the medical men that saw part(s) of the body, said about the estimated time of death. Hebbert's overall opinion was somewhere between the beginning of August and the beginning of September. Neville thought the person whose arm he saw on 11 September had been dead for 3 or 4 days (if I'm not mistaken) which would mean around 8 September.

This fact alone shows that Torso Man did have some private place where he killed the Whitehall victim. But he nevertheless went ahead and killed Chapman out in the open.

Futhermore, the torso was discovered on 2 October, so at least the torso and the leg found 2 weeks later had to have been stored somewhere. Of course, it's possible that the Whitehall victim was killed & cut up at the Whitehall construction site, but it seems odd to me that nobody noticed a thing until weekse later. I have to admit that don't have the in-depth knowledge that Jerry has on the subject, so I'd have to delve into it to see how he explains those parts were not seen/found earlier.

Cheers,
Frank

oh ok thanks got it. but we dont know exactly what day whitehall torso was murdered, or cut up, or removed from his bolt hole, or if any of the torso parts were placed somewhere else before brought to whitehall.
so i dont think we can say he had his bolt hole available when chapman was murdered. and this isnt even bringing in access or not to a cart, which may have also played a part in whether he killed in his bolt hole or on the street.

its way too uncertain for me. and besides as i mentioned its possible he didnt have his chop shop and or cart available for whitehall. so killed/ dismembered her somewhere else or even on premise like jerry suggested. which of course, if so, points even stronger to one of the workers there like wildbore.

[FrankO]

It’s perhaps a nitpick but why are ‘cut out uteri’ and ‘opened up abdomens from sternum to groin’ counted as two points of similarity? One was necessary to achieve the other. We might as well add ‘didn’t mind getting blood on his hands.’

Hi Mike,

I think that's just because Torso Man also made cuts from sternum to pubes that didn't open up the abdomen.

The fact that the cut down the abdomen in especially the Pinchin Street case and posdibly also in the Rainham case (although I'm not sure) didn't open the belly, to me suggests a different man rather than the same. The cut from sternum to pubes that opened the abdomen was only the hallmark of the Ripper.

Cheers,
Frank

[Abby Normal]

Sorry for sounding dense [ and I haven't really been following this thread ], but am I missing something here ?

Whoever [ in my opinion ] , committed the torso crimes [ whether it was one or more people ], would have almost certainly have had to have access to some private dwelling, to dismember the bodies , clean the scene up in case of visitors or smell say, and transport the body parts, perhaps over a number of days from. Now if torso was Jack and Jack was Lech where did Lech have this private abode ?. He worked at Pickfords so very unlikely there and he lived on Doveton st etc with a wife and family, so impossible I would say at home. And where did the money come from [ if indeed he did have a safe and secure place ] to have a private dwelling in the cramped and confined east end. Again apologies if I have missed something .

Regards Darryl

hi dk
fiver corrected me..we can talk about lech here.

my thoughts are he had a bolt hole somewhere. his mom later had a cats meat shop. and also i beleive lech owned a shop or store later? so they were not adverse to owning a separate abode of business of some type. perhaps he had something similar earlier if he was the torsoripper.

also, if torsoman and the ripper were the same man, and you include the 1873/74 torsos (i lean they prob were, and fish def does) then lech is the only suspect that fits the bill agewise.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Mike,

I think that's just because Torso Man also made cuts from sternum to pubes that didn't open up the abdomen.

The fact that the cut down the abdomen in especially the Pinchin Street case and posdibly also in the Rainham case (although I'm not sure) didn't open the belly, to me suggests a different man rather than the same. The cut from sternum to pubes that opened the abdomen was only the hallmark of the Ripper.

Cheers,
Frank

Thanks for that Frank.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Mike,

I think that's just because Torso Man also made cuts from sternum to pubes that didn't open up the abdomen.

The fact that the cut down the abdomen in especially the Pinchin Street case and posdibly also in the Rainham case (although I'm not sure) didn't open the belly, to me suggests a different man rather than the same. The cut from sternum to pubes that opened the abdomen was only the hallmark of the Ripper.

Cheers,
Frank

hi frank
mckenzie had the vertical cut too, but not as deep as the other ripper victims also. do you rule her out as a ripper victim, or then maybe as a torso victim, since the verticle gash was more akin to them?

imho if they were the same man, then the vertical gash was kind of like torsomans first kiss, or part of a sig, regardless of how deep it went.

[Lewis C]

Yes, absolutely correct chronology.

In my post I failed to highlight clearly that the killer didn't alternate during the Canonical 5 murders....but after Kelly, he took a pause, and then the timeline picks up again precisely how you have listed it.
The murder sequence then alternates between Ripper and Torso style application over the course of the next few years.
The last torso style killing occurred in 1902 in Lambeth.

I thought you were clear that there were no Torso murders during the C5 sequence. I was just saying, OK, but if there were Ripper murders after that, then there was some alternation between Ripper murders ans Torso murders.

The question is, why the gap after Kelly?

Now it has always been assumed that Kelly was the Rippers swansong...but what if that's not correct?

What if the killer regarded his slaying of Kelly as a failure.

Many think that Kelly was his last murder, but many don't. If she wasn't, we don't know the reason for the gap, but there are several possibilities. Maybe he was prevented one way or another (incarceration, illness, injury), maybe there was an increased police presence that deterred him, maybe the extremeness of the Kelly mutilations satisfied him for awhile. Maybe the winter accounts for part of the period: if we assume that the Ripper murders were the C5 plus Smith, Tabram, and McKenzie, then he never struck during the months of December thru March.

The Ripper was likely to have been around 36 when he killed 5 unfortunates in an unbroken series in 1888.

And therefore aged around 21 when he made his first kill in 1873.

That would then make him around 50 when he committed his last Torso kill in 1902.

His birth year between 1851 - 1853

That's a 30 year killing career spanning his 20's to his 50's

I don't see any reason to believe that 36 was his most likely age in 1888 unless we start with the belief that he committed murders in 1873 and 1902 and pick the age that best fits that range.

There's also a chance that there were 2 men involved.

Tabram and Mylett hint at that quite strongly.

And certainly Emma Smith does. If we can believe Israel Schwartz, Stride too.

[Lewis C]

also, if torsoman and the ripper were the same man, and you include the 1873/74 torsos (i lean they prob were, and fish def does) then lech is the only suspect that fits the bill agewise.

Hi Abby,

Are you saying here that if we could establish that the 1873/74 torso murders were committed by the same man that committed the 1888 Whitechapel murders, then we could eliminate all named Ripper suspects except Lech as viable suspects on account of their ages?