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Similarities between JTR and Thames Torso murders?

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  • Similarities between JTR and Thames Torso murders?

    What are the distinct similarities between the Jack the Ripper killings and the Thames Torso Murders?

    1. Both happened in Whitechapel (Pinchin St)
    2. Abdominal mutilation (Pinchin St)
    3. Facial mutilation (Battersea Mystery)
    4. Uterus removal (Elizabeth Jackson)
    5. Abdominal flaps cut away (Elizabeth Jackson)
    6. Both series ostensibly end in 1889

    I've deliberately left out some obvious ones, like the victims being prostitutes, since sex workers are common prey for serial killers.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Harry D View Post
    What are the distinct similarities between the Jack the Ripper killings and the Thames Torso Murders?

    1. Both happened in Whitechapel (Pinchin St)
    2. Abdominal mutilation (Pinchin St)
    3. Facial mutilation (Battersea Mystery)
    4. Uterus removal (Elizabeth Jackson)
    5. Abdominal flaps cut away (Elizabeth Jackson)
    6. Both series ostensibly end in 1889

    I've deliberately left out some obvious ones, like the victims being prostitutes, since sex workers are common prey for serial killers.
    Hi HarryD!

    i wouldnt leave out prostitutes-I know many do target them, but different serial killers target different victimology. children, men, boys, college coeds. etc.

    anyway some more:

    nose cut off (tottenham 84)
    face targeted (battersea and Tottenham)
    at night
    ruse involved
    skill with knife/cutting
    anatomical knowledge
    rings stolen
    remains left in shocking and public places ("displayed")
    no overt signs of sexual abuse
    no torture
    fascination with what their cutting instruments could do to the female body
    unsolved

    also, im glad you included they both ended at the same time. Ive been banging on about that forever, with little recognition. Good to see someone finally notice. and ive seen no good explanation for that incredible "coincidence"!
    "Is all that we see or seem
    but a dream within a dream?"

    -Edgar Allan Poe


    "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
    quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

    -Frederick G. Abberline

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Harry D View Post
      What are the distinct similarities between the Jack the Ripper killings and the Thames Torso Murders?
      .
      Don't quote me on it, but I think Fisherman might have joined a few dots on this matter....
      Thems the Vagaries.....

      Comment


      • #4
        Hey Abby, thanks for chipping in!

        Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
        also, im glad you included they both ended at the same time. Ive been banging on about that forever, with little recognition. Good to see someone finally notice. and ive seen no good explanation for that incredible "coincidence"!
        Yeah, the coincidence is pretty telling. The 1902 Lambeth torso is something of an outlier and appears to be a bodge job. There was a lack of skill evident in that case and the culprit had made efforts to destroy the remains.

        For me, it's too significant that Jackson, McKenzie and the Pinchin St torso all occur a few months apart in 1889, with the last torso dumped in Whitechapel.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Harry D View Post
          Hey Abby, thanks for chipping in!



          Yeah, the coincidence is pretty telling. The 1902 Lambeth torso is something of an outlier and appears to be a bodge job. There was a lack of skill evident in that case and the culprit had made efforts to destroy the remains.

          For me, it's too significant that Jackson, McKenzie and the Pinchin St torso all occur a few months apart in 1889, with the last torso dumped in Whitechapel.
          yeah lambeths out for me. last definite is pinchin. and as you say in WC. that there were two of these cretins about at the same time and place who stopped simultaneously beggars belief IMHO.
          "Is all that we see or seem
          but a dream within a dream?"

          -Edgar Allan Poe


          "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
          quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

          -Frederick G. Abberline

          Comment


          • #6
            Back in the day, some believed them to be the same man, too. For a few of the same reasons laid out here over the years.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Harry D View Post
              What are the distinct similarities between the Jack the Ripper killings and the Thames Torso Murders?

              1. Both happened in Whitechapel (Pinchin St)
              2. Abdominal mutilation (Pinchin St)
              3. Facial mutilation (Battersea Mystery)
              4. Uterus removal (Elizabeth Jackson)
              5. Abdominal flaps cut away (Elizabeth Jackson)
              6. Both series ostensibly end in 1889

              I've deliberately left out some obvious ones, like the victims being prostitutes, since sex workers are common prey for serial killers.
              And one strikingly dissimilar aspect is private acts vs public ones. The main objection I would have with this is the incorrect assumption that we already know which victims fell to the fellow nicknamed Jack the Ripper. It may be multiple killers within just the Canonical Group. To stretch a presumed "series" already on shaky ground to the extreme by suggesting all the murders of stray prostitutes in London at the time were by the same man is too far a stretch.
              Michael Richards

              Comment


              • #8
                The more I look at the Torso Murders, the less convinced I am that all of the 'series' were all attributable to a single perpetrator. This becomes even harder for me to believe when we include the murders from 1884 and earlier.

                I am uncomfortable with the classification of the victims in the torso cases as prostitutes. For many of them, we do not know who they were. One unidentified body is thought to be a prostitute because she had a tattoo, this is far from conclusive. In the case of Elizabeth Jackson, she was 7 - 8 months pregnant at the time of her death, I don't find the claim she was a prostitute or engaging in street walking particular convincing.

                We don't know that the torso victims were prostitutes and their are documented cases of solved dismemberment murders for the purposes of frustrating an identification during the same era.

                Comment


                • #9
                  At the risk of sounding pedantic, the torso was discovered in St George E rather than Whitechapel. Virtually on the boundary of the two parishes, which ran down Backchurch Lane. And across the road from Charles Lechmere’s childhood home in Pinchin (then Thomas) Street, which was still standing in 1889. A fact that Ed Stow now seems to acknowledge. I knew he’d get there eventually.
                  Last edited by MrBarnett; 07-18-2020, 12:33 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by jerryd View Post
                    Back in the day, some believed them to be the same man, too. For a few of the same reasons laid out here over the years.

                    thanks jerry
                    interesting article. and it points out three similarities that i find particularily relevent also.
                    "Is all that we see or seem
                    but a dream within a dream?"

                    -Edgar Allan Poe


                    "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                    quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                    -Frederick G. Abberline

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by seanr View Post
                      The more I look at the Torso Murders, the less convinced I am that all of the 'series' were all attributable to a single perpetrator. This becomes even harder for me to believe when we include the murders from 1884 and earlier.

                      I am uncomfortable with the classification of the victims in the torso cases as prostitutes. For many of them, we do not know who they were. One unidentified body is thought to be a prostitute because she had a tattoo, this is far from conclusive. In the case of Elizabeth Jackson, she was 7 - 8 months pregnant at the time of her death, I don't find the claim she was a prostitute or engaging in street walking particular convincing.

                      We don't know that the torso victims were prostitutes and their are documented cases of solved dismemberment murders for the purposes of frustrating an identification during the same era.
                      hi sean
                      jackson was a prostitute and at least an unfortunate who was living rough. the others remained un ided but its a fair bet they were in similar circs. probably why they were never ided was because they were prostitutes as no one cared about them enough and or the transient lifestyle.

                      torsoman was also an offensive dismemberer. ie he did it for other reasons other than to just hide bodies or ID. that much is clear as there were mutilations way above and beyond needed for that purpose and the odd, shocking and public places he left body and parts.

                      "Is all that we see or seem
                      but a dream within a dream?"

                      -Edgar Allan Poe


                      "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                      quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                      -Frederick G. Abberline

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

                        hi sean
                        jackson was a prostitute and at least an unfortunate who was living rough. the others remained un ided but its a fair bet they were in similar circs. probably why they were never ided was because they were prostitutes as no one cared about them enough and or the transient lifestyle.

                        torsoman was also an offensive dismemberer. ie he did it for other reasons other than to just hide bodies or ID. that much is clear as there were mutilations way above and beyond needed for that purpose and the odd, shocking and public places he left body and parts.
                        I believe the evidence shows that one of the discovered body parts was likely placed there... to be found. As I recall, others were just disposed of. Dismemberment and Mutilation are not synonyms either. Very different things.
                        Michael Richards

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by jerryd View Post
                          Back in the day, some believed them to be the same man, too. For a few of the same reasons laid out here over the years.

                          Nice find, Jerry! Not surprising there were contemporaries who also made the connection.

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