Torso Killer discussion from Millwood Thread

[jerryd]

London Mercury
June 29, 1889

[drstrange169]

>>I did inquire about the cost of having the file copied a while back but it was way beyond my budget!<<

How much? Maybe a few of us could kick in some coin, if it isn't too ridiculously expensive. One of the advantages of a group interest is we should be able to do these sort of things to further group knowledge.

[Joshua Rogan]

Unfortunately, John didn't get around to doing any calculations for other cases as far as I am aware, Jeff.

Thanks for posting what John did analyse. That seems to be consistent with the contemporary police opinion.

If you look at Google street view images of the Albert Bridge and continuing on the road you can clearly see the old frame ground area of Battersea Park where a section of Elizabeth's torso was found after being spotted the day before. You can actually see that someone may have lent over the area of the bridge to throw a parcel in to the rough ground 200 yards from the Thames side. Speculating a little, perhaps the perpetrator din't intend to deposit in the park but it was accidental as he aimed for the river. Both land finds (the park and Shelley house gardens) were apparently thrown.

Is it known precisely where the body part in the park was found? I think 200 yds from the river would be about the main western entrance to the park, near West Lodge, if I estimate correctly. The road is at the same level as the park there, and only really rises above it in the 50 metres or so nearest the bridge. If the torso section was thrown off the elevated part, it would have landed in what is marked as a "stone yard". For what it's worth, the Pinchin St Torso was found in the entrance to a stone yard.

[Debra A]

>>I did inquire about the cost of having the file copied a while back but it was way beyond my budget!<<

How much? Maybe a few of us could kick in some coin, if it isn't too ridiculously expensive. One of the advantages of a group interest is we should be able to do these sort of things to further group knowledge.

It was a very large amount if I am thinking of the correct quote. A very charming man emailed me to say he may look at it.

[Debra A]

Thanks for posting what John did analyse. That seems to be consistent with the contemporary police opinion.



Is it known precisely where the body part in the park was found? I think 200 yds from the river would be about the main western entrance to the park, near West Lodge, if I estimate correctly. The road is at the same level as the park there, and only really rises above it in the 50 metres or so nearest the bridge. If the torso section was thrown off the elevated part, it would have landed in what is marked as a "stone yard". For what it's worth, the Pinchin St Torso was found in the entrance to a stone yard.

Hi JR It was described as in the 'Frame Ground' about 200 yards from the river according to newspapers, in an area not accessible by the public. I did find (and subsequently lost) an old map with the fame ground marked on and it was in the general area of the stone ground marked on the 1872 Stanford's map IIRC. There were greenhouses here too and it wasn't open to the public, just as that area doesn't seem to be accessible now. I will try and find the map again.

[Debra A]

I don't know if this has already been mentioned in the previous Met Board of Works discussions but "in 1887 the Park, [Battersea] at the same time as Victoria and Kennington, was given up to the Metropolitan Board of Works...."
Pg 159 London parks and gardens by Cecil, Evelyn, Mrs.
Available on Internet Archive

[Joshua Rogan]

It was impossible to know if the Whitehall victim was pregnant because her [/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]uterus was missing, which in itself is highly suggestive of either an abortion case or a "pregnancy murder." [/LEFT]

Strictly speaking, RJ, the entire pelvis was missing, so it's unknown whether or not the uterus was itself removed, or damaged in any way.

[Abby Normal]

London Mercury
June 29, 1889

Hi Jerry
Thanks for posting. very interesting!

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi JR It was described as in the 'Frame Ground' about 200 yards from the river according to newspapers, in an area not accessible by the public. I did find (and subsequently lost) an old map with the fame ground marked on and it was in the general area of the stone ground marked on the 1872 Stanford's map IIRC. There were greenhouses here too and it wasn't open to the public, just as that area doesn't seem to be accessible now. I will try and find the map again.

Thanks Debs. I may be wrong, but isn't "frame" just a posh word for a big greenhouse? If so, this probably points to the greenhouse area that was walled off, although it's well away from Albert Bridge Road, and has a fairly high looking wall on Streetview. Or beside the road between the stone yard and the west lodge is an area maked "nursery" which might also have been closed to the public. It would be possible to throw a parcel into this area from the road, but you'd have to be well into the park to dump anything over the greenhouse area wall.
i'll try and post a map if I can work out how to on this updated forum...

[Abby Normal]

[QUOTE=rjpalmer;n702643]

Not necessarily so, Jeff.

It was impossible to know if the Whitehall victim was pregnant because her uterus was missing, which in itself is highly suggestive of either an abortion case or a "pregnancy murder."

Meanwhile, in the 1873 case, it was specifically theorized that the victim had had an abortion. Since Jackson was pregnant and cut to pieces, the prime suspect HAS to be the man who had impregnated her. Perhaps he was innocent, but he certainly would need to explain himself and furnish an alibi.

The point though, Jeff, isn't that all of the victims can be pinned on abortionists; the point is that if even if only one or two of them were, it raises the possibility that we are looking at unrelated murders and there was no "series" at all. Excuse me if I misunderstand, but you seem to be working from the premise that there IS a series, and then working backwards, dismiss possible motives based on the medical condition of the victims in the other cases.

By the way, in reference to those notes, what on earth does Hebbert mean by saying the victim had the "uterus of a virgin"? That's nonsensical, isn't it?

Hi rj

It was impossible to know if the Whitehall victim was pregnant because her uterus was missing, which in itself is highly suggestive of either an abortion case or a "pregnancy murder."

Chapman and eddowes had there uterus missing also-is that also "highly suggestive of either an abortion case or a "pregnancy murder."?

If anything its a similarity that points to a link with the ripper series.

Since Jackson was pregnant and cut to pieces, the prime suspect HAS to be the man who had impregnated her. Perhaps he was innocent, but he certainly would need to explain

he was and did-he had an alibi and was cleared.

the point is that if even if only one or two of them were, it raises the possibility that we are looking at unrelated murders and there was no "series" at all.

and then the same reasoning would apply-- that if one was a prostitute (Elizabeth Jackson) then the rest probably were. Especially since none others were ID'ed-because unfortunately people didn't care enough about them.

[Joshua Rogan]

[Debra A]

Thanks Debs. I may be wrong, but isn't "frame" just a posh word for a big greenhouse? If so, this probably points to the greenhouse area that was walled off, although it's well away from Albert Bridge Road, and has a fairly high looking wall on Streetview. Or beside the road between the stone yard and the west lodge is an area maked "nursery" which might also have been closed to the public. It would be possible to throw a parcel into this area from the road, but you'd have to be well into the park to dump anything over the greenhouse area wall.
i'll try and post a map if I can work out how to on this updated forum...

Thanks, JR, I had it in mind that the frame ground was something to do with smaller cold frames-the type gardeners use to cultivate seedlings before planting out. That would fit in with the nursery area you describe. I really need to find that plan again to be certain. Memory works in strange ways...if it works at all.

[Joshua Rogan]

Thanks, JR, I had it in mind that the frame ground was something to do with smaller cold frames-the type gardeners use to cultivate seedlings before planting out. That would fit in with the nursery area you describe. I really need to find that plan again to be certain. Memory works in strange ways...if it works at all.

Ah yeah, cold frame, that's what I was thinking of. Which is actually a very small greenhouse. You can tell I'm not much of a gardener. But yes, sounds like it could well be the nursery area adjacent to the road. Shame my map doesn't show any more detail than the name in that spot.

[jerryd]

Debs and Joshua,

Found this in a gardening magazine.

GC & HTJ., Volume 18 1895

[jerryd]

And this one:

Journal of Horticulture and Practical Gardening, Volume 16