Torso Killer discussion from Millwood Thread

[Abby Normal]

It's about half a mile from the Shelley house, along the Embankment, across Albert Bridge to the (probable) Battersea Park dump site.

thanks Jr
that seems kind of far to hold on to a leg, especially if all the other parts have gotten rid of, no?

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Fish how do we know he carried all the body parts out together in one go?

Exactly. He could have disposed of the evidence piecemeal (pardon pun) over a few visits. This would have been less risky than if he lugged an entire disassembled body with him and dropped several pieces of corpse into the Thames all at once or in quick succession. He'd have been more conspicuous visually and audibly if he'd chosen to take the latter course of action.

[Darryl Kenyon]

And it is not as if he never made it to the river - we know that he did! And so he must have had the choice to throw the leg into the Thames together with the rest. Instead, he plucked it out of the bag he carried it in, went over to the Shelley estate and flung it over the high fence...?

Why not throw the whole bag of parts into the water and be done with it? In one second flat? That's what dismembers generally do, and that is why these murders are so often referred to as trunk murders.

Hi Fish how do we know he carried all the body parts out together in one go?

[Sam Flynn]

Thanks JR and Sam
and yet again, with the river seemingly at hand (again) for torsoman he just happens to throw it in Frankensteins garden.

Well, regardless of who once lived there, the shrubbery would have been a good place to quickly jettison an incriminating body part.

[Joshua Rogan]

One more question-how far was the Shelley estate from the Albert bridge.

It's about half a mile from the Shelley house, along the Embankment, across Albert Bridge to the (probable) Battersea Park dump site.

[Fisherman]

Thanks JR and Sam
and yet again, with the river seemingly at hand (again) for torsoman he just happens to throw it in Frankensteins garden.

And it is not as if he never made it to the river - we know that he did! And so he must have had the choice to throw the leg into the Thames together with the rest. Instead, he plucked it out of the bag he carried it in, went over to the Shelley estate and flung it over the high fence...?

Why not throw the whole bag of parts into the water and be done with it? In one second flat? That's what dismembers generally do, and that is why these murders are so often referred to as trunk murders.

[Abby Normal]

One more question-how far was the Shelley estate from the Albert bridge.

[Abby Normal]

I would estimate about 60' or so from the water. I see Sam has gone for 80', but basically it's the width of the Embankment road, so have a look for yourself;

Thanks JR and Sam
and yet again, with the river seemingly at hand (again) for torsoman he just happens to throw it in Frankensteins garden.

[Abby Normal]

Abby,

I still, personally, like the angle of the Board of Works/ LCC. The construction of New Scotland Yard was overseen by them, Battersea Park was operated by them at the time, the Pinchin Land was owned by the WBoW and the embankments were managed by them. I recall reading that around the time the BoW took over Battersea Park (1887), many men lost their jobs. Perhaps someone was angry at them for this? We also know George Lusk was on the Board of Works.

absolutely Jerry! I know this connection has been talked about extensively before, and your research into it, and I totally agree.

[Fisherman]

Abby,

I still, personally, like the angle of the Board of Works/ LCC. The construction of New Scotland Yard was overseen by them, Battersea Park was operated by them at the time, the Pinchin Land was owned by the WBoW and the embankments were managed by them. I recall reading that around the time the BoW took over Battersea Park (1887), many men lost their jobs. Perhaps someone was angry at them for this? We also know George Lusk was on the Board of Works.

That is - and I think I have said it before - sterling work, Jerry. But how do we place a single man tied to the WBoW in all these places? Apart from the New Scotland Yard building, the other sites were not fenced off or anything like that, so why would a killer - regardless if he was tied to the Board - feel compelled to use these settings for dumping body parts? Are you suggesting some sort of coordinator? Was there such a person?

[Fisherman]

Looking at a map, I'd guess that the distance from the nearest (h)edge of Shelley House to the Thames is roughly 80ft, and someone stood mid-way would have been approx 40ft away from the bushes outside Shelley House on the one hand, and the river on the other.

That speaks to me of a conscious decision, since he would have come from the riverbank all of them 80 feet up to the house to throw the leg into the garden. And the fence was high, it would seem, so it was no small effort. Surely, it would have been easier to throw it in the river - and certainly, throwing all the parts in at the same time and place, in whatever sort of device they were carried in, would have been the easiest choice of them all.

[Fisherman]

So the major part of the torso found in Battersea park may have been tossed from the bridge with the intent to get it into the river and or just thrown away in haste because someone else was approaching.
Or it may have been put there intentionally.

the leg in the Shelley estate may have been tossed from the road just to get rid of and or because someone else was approaching.
or it may have been thrown there on purpose.

both are speculation, both are possible, but the fact remains that most of the other parts were found in the river and yet these are found on land, one part being the largest portion, and one part thrown into the Shelley estate.

In my mind though, I would think the first thing someone would want to get rid of is the largest, and most difficult to move section, and that this would be the first thing that would be tossed into the river. and yet its found in the park some far distance from the river.

and the leg, could have been discarded also in the river, it being close to the shelley estate, yet they chose to throw it over a high fence/bushes. It could have been dropped easily anywhere, or thrown into the river with the other parts.

And come to think of it-how long would it take, once on the bridge (assuming its one person in a cart of course-which I think is most likely scenario) to throw all the parts into the river? not very long-so it would only take a few seconds to throw the major part of the torso and the leg into the river after one has already thrown the other parts in. What are the chances that having thrown most of the parts in the river, something happened in that instance (like someone approaching) that would cause the person to stop and take off, still with a couple of parts in his possession? in the middle of the night? That's a tad too tight for me.

and as Fish said, add in that other torsos are found in the basement of NSY and smack dab in the middle of Pinchin street and I can only come to the conclusion that the killer was leaving the remains in these places on purpose, for some kind of meaning above and beyond just trying to get rid of, or hide.

I agree totally, Abby. I think the mistake that is often made is to isolate one matter and look at how it in itself may have been a fluke, a coincidence. Once we do that - and it is VERY frequently done - we can easily conclude that a fluke is very possible. It is the combined weight of the many flukes that sinks that vessel in my eyes.

A killer who has chopped up a body in little pieces for ease of transportation, and who has brought those pieces along to a bridge with the intent of throwing the parts in the river will be carrying the parts in some sort of sack or trunk or something. The expected thing to do is to throw the whole sack or trunk into the water and be rid of it. I find the concept of the killer opening the sack/trunk up and throwing the parts in, one after the other, hard to believe in UNLESS we are dealing with the kind of culprit I actually believe we ARE dealing with - somebody who used the parts to make a statement.

Are we to believe that the killer chucked the parts in one by one, and that he then took his sack or trunk with himself, bloody and gory, as he returned home? Or did he throw it in the river too? If so, why open it up first and take the parts out? And why save some parts for dumping on dry land?

[Joshua Rogan]

hi JR
how far was the river from Shelley estate/garden where the leg was found?

I would estimate about 60' or so from the water. I see Sam has gone for 80', but basically it's the width of the Embankment road, so have a look for yourself;

[jerryd]

Thanks, so would Lusk have had little or no interest/influence in what happened way across town from his patch, instead leaving such matters to his counterparts in the West? Would Lusk even have been known to those disgruntled workers who lost their jobs in the subsumption of Battersea into the MBoW?

I'm not sure how involved Lusk was. I believe he was a vestryman for Mile End BoW, IIRC. Regarding the counterparts in the West knowing who he was? Again, not sure, Gareth.

The disgruntled workers was speculation on my part, of course. I have never put much stock into it. Or research for that matter. I still believe one of the workers in the Scotland Yard building was involved, somehow.

[Sam Flynn]

The Metropolitan Board of Works acquired (by transfer) Battersea, Kennington and Victoria Parks in 1887.

Thanks, so would Lusk have had little or no interest/influence in what happened way across town from his patch, instead leaving such matters to his counterparts in the West? Would Lusk even have been known to those disgruntled workers who lost their jobs in the subsumption of Battersea into the MBoW?