Torso Killer discussion from Millwood Thread

[Abby Normal]

What practical reason could there be that once youve dumped most of the torso parts off or very near the bridge, you hold onto one last part, the leg, some half mile before getting rid if it.

[bolo]

What if? The exact same thing applies. There will be the impracticability of having to make several rounds imposed on the killer and that will carry with itself a much enlarged danger of being sighted and caught.

Well, at least in case of the Pinchin St. and New Scotland Yard torsi, the killer did just that, he dumped one more or less big part of the bodies on different locations and not in one place. This tells me that the dismemberment was mostly done for practical reasons which does not mean there wouldn't have been ritualistic elements involved in the whole process but I don't think it was cutting down the bodies to easy-to-transport portions. In my opinion, a possible ritual part took place post-mortem, pre-dismemberment.

[Fisherman]

I believe he did, Christer. He may have traveled one way over Albert Bridge on his way to work at the new police offices and then the other way over the bridge on his way home on Maysoule Road.

Ah! That Wildbore fellow again? So where would he have chopped up the body, do you think? And why would he place it in a vault to which he and very few other had access and were aquainted with? Tipping of the coppers?

[Fisherman]

Quite, and it's almost certain that the dismemberment and disposal were indeed for entirely practical reasons.

No. Don´t pass your ideas off as facts or near certanties. It was wrong when you said that it is almost certain that the killer lived close to or in Battersea and it is equally wrong now. In how many cases of practically led on dismemberment has the killer taken out the heart, lungs and uterus from a victim? In how many cases of practically led on dismemberment has the victim had her abdominal wall cut away in large flaps?

It´s okay to say that you "strongly feel" something, but please leave it like that if you want to hold on to some level of trustworthyness.

[Fisherman]

Hi Fisherman,



what if the dismemberment of the bodies was done to a) make identification difficult and b) to be able to individually dispose the parts at varying times at different spots (maybe even by more than one person)? If we assume for a moment that the dismemberment had a more practical rather than ritualistic meaning, dumping all parts of one body at one and the same spot seems counterproductive to me.

Cheers,

Boris

What if? The exact same thing applies. There will be the impracticability of having to make several rounds imposed on the killer and that will carry with itself a much enlarged danger of being sighted and caught.

[Sam Flynn]

If we assume for a moment that the dismemberment had a more practical rather than ritualistic meaning, dumping all parts of one body at one and the same spot seems counterproductive to me.

Quite, and it's almost certain that the dismemberment and disposal were indeed for entirely practical reasons.

[bolo]

Hi Fisherman,

Actually, having to make more than one trip to dispose of body parts is the very definition of impracticality. And since the risk of being seen raises with every trip, it goes without saying that there is danger involved in such a course of action. I´m sure you can see how that works.

what if the dismemberment of the bodies was done to a) make identification difficult and b) to be able to individually dispose the parts at varying times at different spots (maybe even by more than one person)? If we assume for a moment that the dismemberment had a more practical rather than ritualistic meaning, dumping all parts of one body at one and the same spot seems counterproductive to me.

Cheers,

Boris

[Fisherman]

I don't see anything particularly impractical or dangerous in going for a quiet stroll in the dead of night to drop off one or two pieces at a time.

Actually, having to make more than one trip to dispose of body parts is the very definition of impracticality. And since the risk of being seen raises with every trip, it goes without saying that there is danger involved in such a course of action. I´m sure you can see how that works.

[Fisherman]

How short a period would you think? 5-10 minutes - or more?

Do you think no-one would be able to predict where the parts would turn up?

There are two tides a day in the Thames, so that it the span of time I am thinking of.

Predicting where the parts would turn up would be a very hard thing to do, on the best of days. Of course, some people would be better suited to do it than others, but even the lightermen of the river would be unable to be exact in their predictions.

[Debra A]

Never mind- it looks like Chelsea Embankment Gardens are on Cheyne Walk, so not the same area as the named Road

[Debra A]

Hi Debs,

There were two Shelley houses in the area. The "other one" was their theatre on Tite Street which later became Shelley Court. The one in question, on the embankment, is precisely where Joshua has it pegged on his map.



We know from your research that Claude Mellor had disembarked from a steamship at a Chelsea Pier. Upon walking along the embankment he approached the Shelley house where he saw a partially concealed large package in the underbrush of the garden. He located PC Jones (182B) and they proceeded to the estate and approached through the stables and over to the railing where the parcel was thrown over the bushes. It was determined the parcel could not have been pushed through the railing from the estate side but may have been placed there from the embankment side or thrown over the bushes. A later discovery revealed the bush tops were bent and broken. So, to me, because of the mention of approaching through the stables, it seems the garden was on the property itself, where the house stood.

In later years, Harry St.John Hornby stated he lived in a cottage situated in the garden of the Shelley Estate. This shows it was a rather expansive estate fronting the embankment with a large garden attached to the property.

https://ilab.org/sites/default/files...denecatpdf.pdf (pages 6 and 7) Picture of the Cottage

Nice picture of the niche you found earlier too, Debs. Thanks for posting it!

Thanks Jerry! I couldn't get see the estate on the link but I trust it was just as you said.
I found an old photograph of Chelsea Embankment Gardens. I assume that they were right next to the Shelley house and removed or made smaller when the Embankment Gardens Rd was built? I hope I am not off with the loaction. I posted the old pic anyway.
The Chelsea Embankment Gardens were classed in the same category as parkland and covered in new 1891 bylaws, some concerning illegal dumping in gardens and parkland. Batterea Park is also mentioned. I wonder if the same people were responsible for the maintenance/upkeep of both?

[Debra A]

It puzzles me that Mellor just happened to see the parcel. The bushes seemed to be somewhat dense. He must have been searching hard for missing body parts. It's interesting how the journalists were so involved in this case and the Whitehall case (Jasper Waring). And then Mellor, again, in the Pinchin case.

I think many people were involved in a determined search after a couple of portions of Elizabeth's remains had turned up. Perhaps there was a co-ordinated search? The Royal Human Society were involved in searches weren't they? But yes, teh journalists certainly were well represented in the finds.

[Debra A]

Wow, you look at some niche websites! Not that I can talk, I was just reading one about a WREN who was stationed in Shelley House during the war; she was in charge of pay for the crews of motor torpedo boats (which, incidentally, were built by Thorneycroft at Chiswick, the very spot where Druitt's body was found).
Well spotted though. Yes, that corner house I believe is the Shelley House. The side seems to have the same railings and drop to the basement as the front, but the hedge visible in Jerry's 1909 photo probably extended back from that odd freestanding bit of wall visible to the right.
Shame the statue seems to have disappeared, along with the iron fire escape at the back (also visible in Jerry's photo), I suspect they went toward the war effort. But at least we know what bricks it's made from.

You're easily distracted too, eh? Interesting information though. Thanks JR. I had wondered if the garden area in front of the Embankment Gardens houses had been much larger and extended towards the Shelley house and been part of the gardens?

[jerryd]

So if I am correct and he arrived at the bridge from the side where he had cut up Jackson - what possible reasons would he have for crossing the bridge? Why would he not return back the same way he came, minimizing his exposure on the bridge?

I believe he did, Christer. He may have traveled one way over Albert Bridge on his way to work at the new police offices and then the other way over the bridge on his way home on Maysoule Road.

[jerryd]

It puzzles me that Mellor just happened to see the parcel. The bushes seemed to be somewhat dense. He must have been searching hard for missing body parts. It's interesting how the journalists were so involved in this case and the Whitehall case (Jasper Waring). And then Mellor, again, in the Pinchin case.