Ripper Victims?

[Wickerman]

Hi Wick. Very interesting information you have here. Would be extra handy if you provided the sources for each.

Not a problem Tom.

http://www.casebook.org/witnesses/w/Joseph_Lawende.html

It seems that it was usual for people to be asked 'what profession did he appear to work in?' and the if the witness wasn't sure, he'd be given a multiple choice to pick from, inevitably including 'clerk' and 'sailor' amongst others.

Actually Tom I think this is something we are no longer familiar with. As a Brit I can tell you that it was customary in England for the layperson to dress according to your status in life.
A Banker, a Clerk, a Solicitor, a labourer, Farmer, Gamekeeper, Publican, Maid, Doctor, Midwife, etc. all were expected simply by customary tradition to dress according to your position.
So the witness would not need to answer a sequence of questions he would already know that 'how a person dressed' was a significant contribution to his identification.
The Brits were an intensely 'class conscious' society.

Regards, Jon S.

[Ben]

Lawende's man is irrefutably more similar to Schwartz's broad-shouldered man than the "pipeman", who was obviously taller and had completely different headgear. There is really nothing to be concerned about as far as the 19th October article is concerned. It appeared in the Police Gazette, thus assuring us that no skullduggery occurred; it was Lawende's full description, as related by the police. And fortunately, for those who believe Stride was a ripper victim, "sailor man" and "broad-shoulders" mesh up very closely in terms of general appearance (age, height, dress, hat etc). The worst thing the Stride-as-ripper-victim proponents could possibly do, in my opinion, is to focus inordinately on "Pipeman" as a viable suspect (which, in comparison to broad-shoulders, he transparently isn't). Unless Schwartz lied, Broad-shoulders is the obvious killer of Stride - definitely. He was observed attacking Stride at the location in which she died, and around the accepted time of death.

[Tom_Wescott]

Are they really so different?

Mitre Square Man: of shabby appearance, about 30 years of age and 5ft. 9in. in height, of fair complexion, having a small fair moustache, and wearing a red neckerchief and a cap with a peak

Pipeman: 35, ht. 5ft 11in. Comp. Fresh, hair light brown, moustache brown, dress, dark overcoat, old black hard felt hat wide brim, had a clay pipe in his hand.

Two suspects, both around the same age, similar height, fair/brown hair and moustache.

Remarkable that all these years writers have been comparing BS Man to Lawende's man, but no one has pointed this out before.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Wick. Very interesting information you have here. Would be extra handy if you provided the sources for each. It seems that it was usual for people to be asked 'what profession did he appear to work in?' and the if the witness wasn't sure, he'd be given a multiple choice to pick from, inevitably including 'clerk' and 'sailor' amongst others.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

Hi Tom, Malcolm.

Yes Tom, I suggested that due to Lawende not being able to give a complete description at the Inquest, we do not know how well he saw the Redneck-man.

The first description of 'Redneck' was published on Oct. 2nd,...

"of shabby appearance, about 30 years of age and 5ft. 9in. in height, of fair complexion, having a small fair moustache, and wearing a red neckerchief and a cap with a peak".

...yet it had not come from Lawende. The only one of the three witnesses who was talking, was Harris. Lawende had been 'hushed-up' and sequestered away from the public & press, Levy was refusing to talk.
Therefore Harris is the most likely source.

The Oct. 2nd description (above) made no mention of Redneck looking like a sailor.


The police release (Swanson's) of Oct. 19th is the first and only time the "Appearance of a sailor" is mentioned.

"age 30 ht. 5 ft. 7 or 8 in. comp. fair fair moustache, medium built, dress pepper & salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with peak of same colour, reddish handkerchief tied in a knot, round neck, appearance of a sailor."


Many years later at the time of Sadler's 'identification' another copy of Redneck was released...

"...aged from thirty to thirty-five; height 5ft 7in, with brown hair and big moustache; dressed respectably. Wore pea jacket, muffler, and a cloth cap with a peak of the same material.".

No mention of looking like a sailor.


In 1892 another version of the Mitre Sq. suspect, Redneck, hit the press.

"A man of thirty-five, standing 5ft 7in to 5ft 8in, rather square shoulders, clean shaven with the exception of a heavy moustache, inclining to be sandy."

Still no mention of Redneck looking like a sailor.


Where did the idea come from?

It is only in the police version where "appearance of a sailor" is used.

I posted the Marshall 'suspect' partly because in this description it is quite clear that a man "can" wear a cap "with a peak like a sailor", yet "not" have the appearance of a sailor.

The question then arises, was this "appearance of a sailor" an erroneous police assumption all along?

Redneck may not have looked like a sailor, as is demonstrated by the Marshall 'suspect'.

Once again, the Marshall Suspect.
"...He did not see the man's face distinctly, but he noticed that he was dressed in a black cutaway coat and dark trousers, and was wearing a brown cap with a small peak, somewhat like what a sailor would wear. The man's height was about 5ft 6in; he was middle aged, rather stout, and appeared decently dressed. He was not like a man who did hard work, nor was he like a sailor, but he had more the appearance of a clerk than anything else witness could suggest..."

Regards, Jon S.

[Malcolm X]

And what about the man William Marshall saw with Stride about 11:45 pm?

"...He did not see the man's face distinctly, but he noticed that he was dressed in a black cutaway coat and dark trousers, and was wearing a brown cap with a small peak, somewhat like what a sailor would wear. The man's height was about 5ft 6in; he was middle aged, rather stout, and appeared decently dressed. He was not like a man who did hard work, nor was he like a sailor, but he had more the appearance of a clerk than anything else witness could suggest..."

Which one would you match him to?

Regards, Jon S.

no idea, but he isn't the same sailor boy that was with Eddowes...because this is the guy that said ``you'd say anything but your prayers``, ok i've made a mistake, this isn't GH/sailor boy ..... your description is far better detailed than mine, most odd... why am i missing this info !!!!!

this guy is too old and maybe too fat to be the Eddowes suspect.

[Tom_Wescott]

Wick,

This reminds me. Weren't you talking about the possibility that Lawende was asked somewhat 'leading questions' regarding the man he saw? You should check out Smith's memoirs and what he has to say about questioning Lawende, as he actually mentions the use of leading questions. Also, your mention of Marshall reminds me of my research for my Stride articles. I read all the different versions of Baxter's questioning of Marshall, and the longer ones reveal not only very leading questions, but a very pompous and condescending attitude towards Marshall. Definitely one of Baxter's weaker moments. It was also a reminder to me how condensed most of the inquest transcripts are in newspapers and how sometimes we're given the end result, but not all the questioning that led up to it, which could have bearing on the validity of said end result.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

yes all these JOE AVERAGE suspects look different, but only really their clothing, these suspects are thus open to interpretation, so with an error of maybe 50%, we have BLOTCHY FACE, BROAD SHOULDERS, SAILOR BOY, that could all be the same person......

And what about the man William Marshall saw with Stride about 11:45 pm?

"...He did not see the man's face distinctly, but he noticed that he was dressed in a black cutaway coat and dark trousers, and was wearing a brown cap with a small peak, somewhat like what a sailor would wear. The man's height was about 5ft 6in; he was middle aged, rather stout, and appeared decently dressed. He was not like a man who did hard work, nor was he like a sailor, but he had more the appearance of a clerk than anything else witness could suggest..."

Which one would you match him to?

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

blackmail

Hello Tom. Blackmail seems a sensible angle for some of these murders. I find many cases of blackmail given in Campbell's book.

Good luck with research.

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

But was Le Grand responsible for any of the Torso murders?...Speculation is free.

I just remembered this thread is actually a torso thread, so I suppose your question is more on topic than what we’ve been discussing. LOL.

Of course I’ve had to think about Le Grand as a possible torso killer, but any argument for that would have to be entirely speculative. In the Ripper crimes, we have him not only involving himself in the investigation, but thwarting it, and I have genuine police suspicion against him for those crimes. Not the case with the torso murders. But I’ll present some points in favor.
One of the theories about the murders is that they were killings for hire, probably to get rid of female blackmailers. I personally favor this theory, versus a sexual serial killer, because the big mystery about the victims is that more effort and energy went into disposing of them than did killing them, so the 1888 series seems more practical than sexual in nature. And keep in mind that this theory predated Simon Wood’s discovery of a newspaper advertisement, placed by Le Grand, offering his services to men being blackmailed.
Another point in Le Grand’s favor would have to be that he had the means work in private, use cabs and the fact that he had absolutely no qualms about killing someone if he could gain from it.
I think the torso killer(s) showed a similar morbid sense of humor and disdain for the police, as displayed by both Le Grand and perhaps the Ripper.
If my estimation of the torso killings is accurate, then the killer must have come from an extremely small pool of possible men, one of which was certainly Le Grand, and among them he might be the only one who came under suspicion of murder during those times, but none of that in any way constitutes proof, and at this juncture I would not stretch my neck out to say that Le Grand was definitely either the Ripper or the torso killer.

A couple of points working AGAINST Le Grand as the torso killer is the obvious fact that he was in prison at the time of the Pinchin Street torso, although this could have been the work of an accomplice. I think there’s evidence in at least the Whitehall torso case of their having been more than one person at work. And only in this case do we have the word ‘Lipski’ chalked above the torso, referencing back to the Berner Street duo witnessed by Schwartz.

Another point against would be the evident lack of curiosity shown by the torso killer, versus that shown by the Ripper. He just seems to have wanted to kill the woman swiftly and with little or no mess, whereas the Ripper wanted to see their insides and eventually demolish them. Two very different motives in these series of killings, but then just because a prostitute has sex with one man only for financial gain, doesn’t mean she can’t with another man for pleasure. And I think if the torso killer were a man for hire, it’s only because he was predisposed to WANT to kill women, and had figured out a way to get paid for it.

Again, the above is entirely speculative and was only provided because I was asked, and should not be taken as me saying Le Grand was the torso killer.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Malcolm,

According to Le Grand, he was 35 in 1888. He was 6ft tall, fair, possibly dark skin, had grey eyes. We are not sure about his facial hair at this time. Because he was active in PI work, he was probably clean shaved, or a small moustache at the most, to facilitate false whiskers. He did wear silent boots and owned an arsenal of weapons, though how proficient he was with these weapons we'll never know, though it was stated he was good with a knife.

I hope you realize that to most of us, Blotchy Man is not a suspect. And personally I see no resemblance between him and BS Man or Lawende's man. But that's how fluid this witness evidence is. I'm also scratching my head at the moment trying to figure out where Mrs. Long's man went to, since you never bring him up. If you want BS Man and Lawende's man to be one and the same, you'll need to explain the change of dressing.

Regarding Le Grand's residence, an estimate (and nothing more) is that he lived about 6 miles away from Flower and Dean Strreet at the time of the murders, or at least that was his primary residence. He also had at least one office in the Strand. I understand what you're saying about suspects who live far away, although clearly that shouldn't apply with Le Grand since he knew every nook and cranny of the East End (that's part of how he was employed by the WVC) and was provably in the East End every night as part of his duties with the WVC, so it requires no speculating to put him in the area. He would have had kept lodgings in the East End, as it's inconceivable that he would have patrolled on foot all night and then walked six miles back home. A cab would be possible, but still not likely given how long it would take to travel the distance. As he was expected most nights at 74 Mile End Rd for the WVC meetings and patrols, I imagine he had a residence not too far away.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Lechmere]

Apart from your closing remarks I think you are starting to get there Malcolm!

[Malcolm X]

How would I know, Lechmere?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

ha ha, you two have obviously got some unfinished business.

it might help you to post up exactly what LE GRAND looks like TOM, i'm only going by what Pipeman looks like.

yes all these JOE AVERAGE suspects look different, but only really their clothing, these suspects are thus open to interpretation, so with an error of maybe 50%, we have BLOTCHY FACE, BROAD SHOULDERS, SAILOR BOY, that could all be the same person...... but not GH, because there's no way that he's Blotchy face, that would be suicidal for him..

because 5ft 8'' in pitch darkness could easily be 5ft 10'' when he's seen again down the road an hour later, plus a short salt and pepper could be mistaken for a broadsholders open coat, these eyewitnesses are all ``down and outs`` especially the ones living in Millers court, they will be totally unreliable.

but on a silhouette, the one thing that you do notice accurately is head gear, even if you're drunk, but then again; this is easy for JTR to vary, as is his coat/ scalf, especially between Stride and Eddowes.

but unfortunately if your suspect looks like D Onston, then you do have a problem, because it's not just height, it's age too, plus it's hard to mistake someone that's slim and tall, from someone that's medium built/stocky and average height.

where did LE GRAND live, because you said something that bothered me, dont expect JTR to live outside the kill zone by as much as 6 miles, he either lives in it, or just outside...... the confusion over the Eddowes apron tells you one thing, that JTR lived somewhere close by, especially if he returned to dump it later on......Stride/Eddowes is too close to each other, it tells me the killer couldn't really be bothered to go too far for his next victim, he didn't mind hanging around that night, it's leaving his territory that he didn't like.

``i'm returning from Romford`` probably means, ``i'm stalking my territory, walking around in circles, unable to find a suitable victim``

[Lechmere]

Speculation is free

[Tom_Wescott]

How would I know, Lechmere?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott