Ripper Victims?

[Malcolm X]

Hello, Malcolm.
Let me see if I've got this straight. You are convinced that the last three murders are linked by anti-semitism like this:
Stride: location. Right next to the IWEC,
Eddowes: the GSG,
Kelly: Hutchinson's description of Astrakhan Man.

This only works if Hutch is the killer; if so, he certainly played a very dangerous game in going to the police. I wonder if he was questioned about an alibi for the Double Event.

That's a hell of a lot of trouble to go to to implicate a Jew. It means he would have had to have:
1) Deliberately chosen Dutfield's Yard as a location for the killing of Stride (or whoever else happened to turn up),
2) Taken the apron piece to Goulston Street and written the message, confident that the message would be connected to the apron piece and the apron piece to Eddowes,
3) Gone to the police to implicate an imaginary suspect for a murder he himself had committed, surely recognizing that this would place him at the scene.

Have I got that right? Perhaps you are suggesting that he wanted to throw suspicion back onto a Jew following Pizer's exoneration?

I'm by no means convinced that he is our GH but didn't I read somewhere that Toppy was barely literate which is why he developed an excellent memory? Might be wrong about this last point but I stand by the rest.

Best wishes,
Steve.

basically yes but i doubt Toppy is GH, dont forget that he only signed one page, the coppers signed the other 2 pages, yet again this is highly suspicious

if toppy is as you; say barely literate, then this means that he almost definitely didn't write the graffiti, this was small and neat, with no spelling mistakes.... i think.

finally, Toppy has totally the wrong personality for JTR

[Malcolm X]

Hi Ben,

I understand where you're coming from. I clearly don't mean to say the police put no value on witness evidence, but as it should be, it wasn't considered 'primary' evidence. But for the sake of our current argument, let me point out that the one suspect we KNOW Lawende was taken to see was Sadler, who does not appear to have been a short man. I think this is significant when considering Lawende's evidence.

Hi Malcolm. You seem to have an inner struggle with George Hutchinson that hues the lens through which you view all the evidence (this is consistent with GH, this isn't consistent with GH, etc). Have you thought about putting GH aside for the time being?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

yea i'm not happy about GH at all, and definitely not Toppy ( who it looks like it is )

recent developments that i should have realised, tell me that JTR going to the police as GH is far too risky and i'm getting sod all help from fellow GH fanboys either, so this isn't helping our cause,

i'm one of the first guys to ever forward GH as JTR and i've been on and off this forum for more years than i care to remember, but right now he's starting to look too weak, let me explain why and this goes right back to the basics

inserting yourself into this case is the work of a genius and it's very foolhardy too, this is not the type of thing that a JOE AVERAGE is capable of doing, or even smart enough to try. this is not the work of a stay at home family guy, that's too bloody lazy to get off his arse and find a job. this killer is already successful in life, either as a criminal, or simply good at his job etc.

if these last 3 murders are linked via Dutfields, then this killer is probably a part time vigilante/ thug, a bit like a Millwall supporter that works as a bank clerk/ Estate agent, he leads a double life

i think he's shooting home to change his disguise between murders, do you know something and i sensed this yesterday :- the Eddowes suspect almost looks too scruffy, he looks like a characture.

they all have similar faces, age too, but they all have different clothing, blotchy face, BS, BANK CLERK, overweight, stocky, military

i've noted many times that some smart people look scruffy, but with just a few items of clothing changed to make them look tidy, it's most bloody odd.

sailor boy..... remove his wideawake and replace with a sailors hat, add a scalf, mess up your face, slouch a bit...... this could quite easily be BS/GH

BS..... NO ! only broad due to the wide overcoat, he could be without a good clear look, medium build only......do others here sense this !

why did JTR ( but not toppy ) describe a jew, when the Eddowes suspect that he would definitely have known of, was described as a sailor, and especially considering that this JTR to me seems intelligent.

1.... well maybe, without anyone realising, plus dead lucky, the Lawende supect and this GH look very similar, but the 50% error due to it being so dark/ change of clothing has worked in JTRs favour.

2..... maybe describing the killer of MJK as another sailor boy, would be too similar to him + or - 50% when he went to Abberline, especially when a sailor boy can also be a labourer/ joe average

3..... did GH therefore describe LA DE DA, to throw the police totally off his scent, thus allowing him to mix with them for the next 2 days.... because he definitely describes a killer, not a jew, a killer.... he even said ``he didn't look like someone that could harm anyone else``..... hang around no, what makes you think that this guy is even the killer, no this is because you want the police to think that he definitely is...... you're telling the police what to think all the time and you've done this 3 times already and by the time you've left 2 days later, you've even convinced the tabloids too.

sorry Tom, GH is still my man, he's just not toppy that's all

[Steven Russell]

Hello, Malcolm.
Let me see if I've got this straight. You are convinced that the last three murders are linked by anti-semitism like this:
Stride: location. Right next to the IWEC,
Eddowes: the GSG,
Kelly: Hutchinson's description of Astrakhan Man.

This only works if Hutch is the killer; if so, he certainly played a very dangerous game in going to the police. I wonder if he was questioned about an alibi for the Double Event.

That's a hell of a lot of trouble to go to to implicate a Jew. It means he would have had to have:
1) Deliberately chosen Dutfield's Yard as a location for the killing of Stride (or whoever else happened to turn up),
2) Taken the apron piece to Goulston Street and written the message, confident that the message would be connected to the apron piece and the apron piece to Eddowes,
3) Gone to the police to implicate an imaginary suspect for a murder he himself had committed, surely recognizing that this would place him at the scene.

Have I got that right? Perhaps you are suggesting that he wanted to throw suspicion back onto a Jew following Pizer's exoneration?

I'm by no means convinced that he is our GH but didn't I read somewhere that Toppy was barely literate which is why he developed an excellent memory? Might be wrong about this last point but I stand by the rest.

Best wishes,
Steve.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Ben,

I understand where you're coming from. I clearly don't mean to say the police put no value on witness evidence, but as it should be, it wasn't considered 'primary' evidence. But for the sake of our current argument, let me point out that the one suspect we KNOW Lawende was taken to see was Sadler, who does not appear to have been a short man. I think this is significant when considering Lawende's evidence.

Hi Malcolm. You seem to have an inner struggle with George Hutchinson that hues the lens through which you view all the evidence (this is consistent with GH, this isn't consistent with GH, etc). Have you thought about putting GH aside for the time being?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Malcolm X]

yes Tom has a point for sure and i've argued what he's saying many times in the past, but the trouble is Pipeman was seen with another suspect BS, who is a better match for Lawende's sailor boy than he is.

JTR therefore appears far more like BS, unfortunately BS does not appear like GH...... not really, not unless i use your arguements

because Toppy was only about 21 to 23, and in addition, the GH seen outside was short and stocky and of military appearence, so i'm not sure really, because we have no idea what Toppy looked like, not unless we contact surviving family members

we do not have a match for the Eddowes suspect, because it's the hat that you wont mistake late at night, because this is too noticeable, therefore for BS to be JTR he has to go home and change

i'm not very convinced about this, because going home to change seems too lame ! but i am TOTALLY CONVINCED that the last 3 murders are linked back to Dutfields/ anti-semetism.

BS to me is the weak link and he was before too.... he just does not look enough like Sailor boy

[Ben]

Hi Tom,

The fact that there were a number of tall suspects is not an indication that the police placed zero faith in the witness descriptions. It just means that for whatever reason, certain suspects warranted investigation in spite of their incompatibility with the preponderance of eyewitness evidence. Grainger in particular had stabbed a prostitute in Spitalfields, and it would have been ludicrous for the police to dismiss him purely because he was on the lofty side. As for the taller suspects outnumbering the shorter ones, the problem there is that the former category contain a number of candidates (not Le Grand), who despite the police suspicion attached to them, are very implausible.

As an aside, both Joseph Levy and Liz Long thought their suspects were slightly or somewhat taller than the female companion (I can't recall the exact words), whereas anything above 5'10" would qualify as appreciably taller, in my view. Also, the pedant in me is forced to observe that Lawende estimated 5'8" for sailor man.

All the best,
Ben

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Tom,

You're a creative fellow.

5 years and 2 inches difference (more if you go with the 5'7/8).

Fair and brown aren't the same.

They both have a moustache. That's about it!

Let's play fair, Mac (pardon the pun). I believe you mean 'light brown', which to many people, would be the same or quite similar to 'fair'.

now your Pipeman is still too old and tall for Lawende, who is about 30 and 5ft 8 or 9, stop trying to make your guy fit this suspect.

I'm clearly discussing this with two individuals who haven't the slightest concept of the reliability of witness evidence. You have both told me that a difference of five years in age and 2 inches in height is proof positive they couldn't have been the same man.

I would love for both of you to team up on an investigation of the Annie Farmer attack, where numerous people - in broad daylight - watched a man exit the lodging house and run away. One witness described him as 5' 6" or 7", another as 5' 3" or 4", another as being a tiny short man. Depending on who you asked, he had a large moustache, a small moustache, or no whiskers at all. This is atypical of such witness evidence, yet no doubt you two would conclude not one, but at least four men had exited the lodging house at the same time!

Ben,

The crime evidence alone determines Stride to be a Ripper victim, and witness descriptions are so generic for the most part that I would consider it desparate to point at Lawende's man and BS Man and conclude anything other than they were similar in appearance. Pipeman, due to his height, is obviously one who stands out from the rest.

Ben, Mac, and Mal,

However, I would point out that Mitre Square Man, at 5' 9" is far closer to 6 ft than he is to 5' 3" inches, as I'v seen given for the estimated height of Mrs. Long's man. For this reason, investigators ALWAYS argue the shorter estimation of MSM's height, which STILL carries with it a larger discrepancy with Mrs. Long's man than does the 5'9" estimate with Pipeman. You guys simply can't have it both ways.

As for age, ask anyone over 35 to show you photos of themselves at 30 and at 35. Assuming their not a crack addict, my guess is there'd be little difference. I'm 37, and I promise if you asked 10 people to walk by me, then asked them to estimate my age, you'd hear everything from 28 to 42.

In short, the estimations of height and age in this case, as in any, are the least reliable evidence we have to work with. Perhaps for this reason, the police placed virtually zero faith in it and considered suspects taller than even Pipeman, such as Tumblety, Le Grand, Ostrog, Grainger, and others. The tall suspects outnumber the short ones.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Ben]

Hi Tom,

The lateness of the hour at which I posted might have contributed to my message coming across as somewhat stroppier than I intended. Sorry about that. But yes, there are obvious similarities between the broad-shoulders and sailor suspects (30 years old, peaked cap, wearing a jacket) that are absent in the suggested sailor-pipeman comparison. BS and sailor-man could very easily have been the same person, and in my opinion, it is a point that the Stride-as-JTR-victim proponents would do well to emphasize. A sailor-like appearance would have been more conspicuous in the City of London, and thus stood a greater chance of being remarked upon by a witness there than in Berner Street, where dockers were far more common. This would account for Schwartz' failure to notice a particular sailor-like appearance.

It must be considered highly unlikely that anyone other than Lawende was the source for the 19th October description that appeared in the Police Gazette.

I certainly don't rule out the possibility that Pipeman and BS were accomplices, but even if that were the case, the latter is still the more likely of the two to be Stride's murderer, given that he was observed physically manhandling her.

All the best,
Ben

[Malcolm X]

Hello Tom,

You're a creative fellow.

5 years and 2 inches difference (more if you go with the 5'7/8).

Fair and brown aren't the same.

They both have a moustache. That's about it!

yes ha ha..... this reminds me of Maybrick !

[Malcolm X]

Hi Malcolm. Did you sit on your glasses and break them? I've repeatedly posted that Pipeman was described at 35 years old, not 40, so please stop saying he's 40 and that he's too old for anything. And Marshall likewise never said his man was 40, he said middle-aged, which might be 40 or might be closer to Marshall's own age, which was 50 something. Whatever sources you're utilizing for your posts, I suggest you burn them.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

it doesn't really matter that much because middle aged is definitely from 40 onwards, this is no good for any of us!

now your Pipeman is still too old and tall for Lawende, who is about 30 and 5ft 8 or 9, stop trying to make your guy fit this suspect, BEN is right; you're twisting the sources to fit LE GRAND...... your guy lives 6 miles away, where the hell is he going to change to fit the Lawende suspect and dont tell me he has rented a room close by, or has a ``bolthole`` like D'ONSTON.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Mitre Square Man: of shabby appearance, about 30 years of age and 5ft. 9in. in height, of fair complexion, having a small fair moustache, and wearing a red neckerchief and a cap with a peak

Pipeman: 35, ht. 5ft 11in. Comp. Fresh, hair light brown, moustache brown, dress, dark overcoat, old black hard felt hat wide brim, had a clay pipe in his hand.

Two suspects, both around the same age, similar height, fair/brown hair and moustache.

Remarkable that all these years writers have been comparing BS Man to Lawende's man, but no one has pointed this out before.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom,

You're a creative fellow.

5 years and 2 inches difference (more if you go with the 5'7/8).

Fair and brown aren't the same.

They both have a moustache. That's about it!

[Malcolm X]

Lawende's man is irrefutably more similar to Schwartz's broad-shouldered man than the "pipeman", who was obviously taller and had completely different headgear. There is really nothing to be concerned about as far as the 19th October article is concerned. It appeared in the Police Gazette, thus assuring us that no skullduggery occurred; it was Lawende's full description, as related by the police. And fortunately, for those who believe Stride was a ripper victim, "sailor man" and "broad-shoulders" mesh up very closely in terms of general appearance (age, height, dress, hat etc). The worst thing the Stride-as-ripper-victim proponents could possibly do, in my opinion, is to focus inordinately on "Pipeman" as a viable suspect (which, in comparison to broad-shoulders, he transparently isn't). Unless Schwartz lied, Broad-shoulders is the obvious killer of Stride - definitely. He was observed attacking Stride at the location in which she died, and around the accepted time of death.

if so, then you had better find another GH then, because at 21 to 23 Toppy is too young to be BS, as well as the Lawende suspect

Toppy does not look like JTR anyway, but this thread here, makes this seem even more unlikely.

i dont think Toppy is the guy we're after anyway, but i'm just saying that's all.

i think also Ben, that you need a good reason to explain away the risk that JTR faces, in going to the police, to insert himself into this case, realising that he's been seen more than once.... Garry needs to think about this too

because including MJK..... GH has been seen at least 3 times and by as many as 30 coppers over the next 2 days, this is definitely bothering me.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Malcolm. Did you sit on your glasses and break them? I've repeatedly posted that Pipeman was described at 35 years old, not 40, so please stop saying he's 40 and that he's too old for anything. And Marshall likewise never said his man was 40, he said middle-aged, which might be 40 or might be closer to Marshall's own age, which was 50 something. Whatever sources you're utilizing for your posts, I suggest you burn them.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Malcolm X]

Mitre Square Man: of shabby appearance, about 30 years of age and 5ft. 9in. in height, of fair complexion, having a small fair moustache, and wearing a red neckerchief and a cap with a peak

Pipeman: 35, ht. 5ft 11in. Comp. Fresh, hair light brown, moustache brown, dress, dark overcoat, old black hard felt hat wide brim, had a clay pipe in his hand.

Two suspects, both around the same age, similar height, fair/brown hair and moustache.

Remarkable that all these years writers have been comparing BS Man to Lawende's man, but no one has pointed this out before.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

YES i understand what you're saying, but to be Lawende's suspect, Pipeman would need to have changed his hat/scalf, a sailors hat isn't as tall as Pipeman's in profile, so this might make the suspect appear shorter.....

the most accurate description is Marshall's, which points towards someone like a younger Captain Mannering from Dads Army.....40 short and fat, and as if he hasn't done a days work in his life..... 5ft 6'' now that is short!.... a bank clerk.

pipeman or BS could be the Eddowes suspect, but they'd need to change for later on......but JTR could also be unrelated as well!

ok, it seems like either BS or Pipeman is our man...... but Pipeman is way too old, as is fatty, to be GH and the Lawende's suspect is a bit too old at 30 to be Toppy as well.

pipeman at about 40, is also too old to be Lawende's suspect.

we dont know if Toppy is GH, because he only signed the witness statement once.... how convenient, but 22 years old or very close, is too young to be any of these other 3 guys!

the only guy in age that's about right is BS to Eddowes, but he's no good for GH, but i'm not totally convinced either way.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Ben, no need to get defensive. I pasted two descriptions and pointed out the similarities, of which there are many. I was mainly doing it to make a point to Malcolm who stated there was no resemblance between Lawende's man and Pipeman, and yet we have two men described around the same aged, same hair, and only 2". In the pantheon of witness descriptions, these two are quite alike. As Wick pointed out, that description may have come from someone other than Lawende.

Regarding the Stride murder, we have a man pull Stride by the arm and we have another man chase Schwartz. The two may or may not have been working together. Your scenario seems to only consider the one option (BS Man as Stride's lone killer, Pipeman as hapless passerby).

And you seem to be saying that BS Man and Lawende's man were dressed alike?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott