torso maps

[Harry D]

There are obviously inconsistencies when trying to identify a pattern of behaviour that reconciles the Torso & Ripper series. However, we must bear in mind that we’re dealing with incomplete data. We shouldn’t blithely ignore the fact that two series of gruesome murders occurred in the same city, with geographical and contemporaneous overlap, which both involved mutilation and organ removal. Why would the Torso serialist suddenly blitz five victims in twelve weeks? I don’t know. As both series were never solved, there’s no way I can definitively answer that. I can only conjecture that there may have been a trigger that drove the killer onto the streets of Whitechapel at that time.

[Sam Flynn]

Harry, there was no specific geographical overlap, as the two series took place at opposite ends of a massively populous city. (Pinchin Street being the sole exception in terms of the torso murders, but even there we see differences compared to the other torso victims.)
The mutilations also differed between the two series, and organ removal was not a constant in respect of the torso cases, as it was most assuredly in four out of five Ripper murders (assuming that the intention was to remove one or more organs from Nichols - a reasonable assumption given the extent of her abdominal wounds). Finally, whilst the two series overlapped, the duration of those series, and the frequency of the murders, were quite different.

[FrankO]

The opening in her abdomen consisting of only two "flaps", as opposed to three as per Chapman and Kelly. Not that it makes much difference when dealing with improvising killers; as I've said before, there are only so many practical ways to open an abdomen, and this "technique" could be hit upon by just about anyone. (It wasn't much of a "technique" in any case; the number, nature and size of the "flaps" diverged wildly when one considers all three cases.)

Crucially, Jackson was pregnant, with the fœtus (not just the uterus) cut out and discarded. This seems rather different in terms of motivation, method and outcome than we see with the Ripper.

I agree that anybody so inclined could have come up with the idea of opening up the abdomen in numerous pieces of whatever form and size, certainly if his main goal was to cut out the foetus, but I don’t feel as strongly about these 2 things as you do, Gareth. What strikes me more is that the only time (we can be sure of) that the torso killer cut out organs through an opening in the abdomen is not until after the Ripper scare ended.

[Sam Flynn]

Indeed, Frank, but the victim in question was carrying a baby.

[Herlock Sholmes]

You honestly believe two different serial killers were removing the uteri from victims in London in 1888? I don't know how you can say that with a straight face.

Quite easily. Because it happened.

Two vastly different methods and outcomes point to two killers therefore any similarities of mutilation are explicable in some way.

I don’t play by Fish’s rules which are, conveniently (and by the way Fish when you read this I’m not in the slightest bit interested in you ‘explaining this to me for the twentieth time.....I don’t accept it!) that the mutilations and the evidence possibly gained from them are more important than the circumstances and mo and the evidence that we can gain from them.

And as you say ‘I don’t know how you can say this with a straight face?’ You might want to consider the fact that the vast majority of people also think 2 killers.

To me, and others, 2 killers is pretty obvious.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I'll agree with you on that sholmes. But i think Jackson's abortion show's the killer was capable of performing one and that's a big clue towards his education and profession. It makes sense the guy who knows how to remove sex organs in the dark streets in minutes flat might work o rhave experience in a field that involves said organs.

Therefore I’ll push it further, with no proof of this of course, there could have been ‘medical’ reasons for all the Torso killings. A madman with some kind of medical training who performed abortions (of which Jackson was a failed Example) he might even have been delusional enough to believe that he was doing some kind of valuable research. He then, because he might be linked to some of his victims, had to destroy their identities by dismemberment

For me, a pretty reasonable scenario which ‘explains’ all. Why can’t this be true apart from the fact of course that some don’t want it to be?

[John Wheat]

Hi HS
in these sorts of crimes one has to take into account unforeseen circs-like being interrupted. I see a natural escalation/progression from Millwood to Tabram all the way to Kelly.

I think the killer was interrupted with Stride (obviously) and also McKenzie.


That both torso and ripper series stopped at the same time-strikes me.

Seems to be overlooked to me-most of the talk is about the differences in when they started, overlapped etc.


But when a series (or two) end, in terms of timeframes, that's more significant-differing circumstances, killers escalation, dormant periods can be difficult to ascertain while trying to sort out re start dates-yet when a series ends there is really no doubt.


that they both end the same time is another similarity that I have trouble accepting its just another coincidence.

But McKenzie may not have been a Ripper victim so this coincidence may not even be a coincidence. There seems to be a growing trend on this thread by some posters to go on about every slight coincidence like it proves something about Jack and The Torso Killer being one and the same but every major difference between the two killers is conveniently glossed over.

[John Wheat]

Quite easily. Because it happened.

Two vastly different methods and outcomes point to two killers therefore any similarities of mutilation are explicable in some way.

I don’t play by Fish’s rules which are, conveniently (and by the way Fish when you read this I’m not in the slightest bit interested in you ‘explaining this to me for the twentieth time.....I don’t accept it!) that the mutilations and the evidence possibly gained from them are more important than the circumstances and mo and the evidence that we can gain from them.

And as you say ‘I don’t know how you can say this with a straight face?’ You might want to consider the fact that the vast majority of people also think 2 killers.

To me, and others, 2 killers is pretty obvious.

All Fisherman contributes is his bull about the flaps being similar which is pathetic.

[RockySullivan]

And as you say ‘I don’t know how you can say this with a straight face?’ You might want to consider the fact that the vast majority of people also think 2 killers.

No thanks I'll let the majority of people keep being ******* idiots and stand on the right side of history in this case

[FrankO]

Indeed, Frank, but the victim in question was carrying a baby.

I know, Gareth, and I know it can't have escaped the attention of whoever murdered her. But what do you want to say by this, other than what you already said in your earlier post (I honestly don't see it ) ?

[RockySullivan]

Therefore I’ll push it further, with no proof of this of course, there could have been ‘medical’ reasons for all the Torso killings. A madman with some kind of medical training who performed abortions (of which Jackson was a failed Example) he might even have been delusional enough to believe that he was doing some kind of valuable research. He then, because he might be linked to some of his victims, had to destroy their identities by dismemberment

For me, a pretty reasonable scenario which ‘explains’ all. Why can’t this be true apart from the fact of course that some don’t want it to be?

So the two serial killers operating in victorian London in 1888 both know how to remove a uterus?

[Abby Normal]

There are obviously inconsistencies when trying to identify a pattern of behaviour that reconciles the Torso & Ripper series. However, we must bear in mind that we’re dealing with incomplete data. We shouldn’t blithely ignore the fact that two series of gruesome murders occurred in the same city, with geographical and contemporaneous overlap, which both involved mutilation and organ removal. Why would the Torso serialist suddenly blitz five victims in twelve weeks? I don’t know. As both series were never solved, there’s no way I can definitively answer that. I can only conjecture that there may have been a trigger that drove the killer onto the streets of Whitechapel at that time.

Exactly harry
I beleive there was a trigger... his chop shop and or cart wasnt available. Theres also the chance that he wanted to up the thrill factor. Or perhaps the trigger was he was trying to convince a victim to his chop shop, she wouldnt go so he took the next best thing.

[Sam Flynn]

I know, Gareth, and I know it can't have escaped the attention of whoever murdered her. But what do you want to say by this, other than what you already said in your earlier post (I honestly don't see it ) ?

That if there hadn't been a "bump" there, the uterus might well have been left intact. Or, in other words, the removal of the uterus was effected largely as a by-product of wanting to remove the child, not as a "hysterectomy" in its own right, which was what happened in the majority of the Ripper murders.

[Harry D]

Harry, there was no specific geographical overlap, as the two series took place at opposite ends of a massively populous city. (Pinchin Street being the sole exception in terms of the torso murders, but even there we see differences compared to the other torso victims.)

Pinchin St was Ripper territory, hence there was geographical overlap. So, not only in the same city but in the same corner of the East End. It would be rare enough to have two series of murders in the same country, let alone the same square mile.

[Abby Normal]

I'll agree with you on that sholmes. But i think Jackson's abortion show's the killer was capable of performing one and that's a big clue towards his education and profession. It makes sense the guy who knows how to remove sex organs in the dark streets in minutes flat might work o rhave experience in a field that involves said organs.

totally agree with this.