torso maps

[Abby Normal]

Thanks Christer 😀

I think you and I have discussed my position on this before. I don’t rule out one killer in both series. I just feel there was more than one man involved in both series and they were working together.

Hi Jerry
A recent poster (I forgot who) recently posted the idea that Hutch was a look out for the killer, who came forward to deflect suspicion away from his accomplice. I had never thought about this before and found it an interesting idea.


Have you thought about this re hutch and the man with Mary as possible accomplices?

does Blotchy fit the discussion of your man Wildbore?
Does hutch or even (dare I? lol) Aman?

[RockySullivan]

Why put himself in a position to be seen by witnesses in the first place? The Ripper murders were the diametric opposite of the torso crimes in that respect alone, never mind the other differences.

Originally Posted by RockySullivan
in the case above of Sam claiming the torso killings would have no witnesses

I claimed no such thing. With comprehension that shaky, you're in no place to lecture anyone about logic.

[Fisherman]

Thanks Christer 😀

I think you and I have discussed my position on this before. I don’t rule out one killer in both series. I just feel there was more than one man involved in both series and they were working together.

Hmm. Well, in the vein of adjusting to what is the more common thing, you are going against the odds on that one.

Then again, I think that we must allow for going against the odds every now and then if we are to find the killer...!

[RockySullivan]

I think you'll find myself and Sam are frustrated at what we see as two clearly separate killers and others inability to follow basic logic and realise that The Torso killer and Jack were two separate killers with totally separate M.O.'s.

I think you'll find that we think that you're full of ****. I've posted a clear example right here: https://forum.casebook.org/showpost....&postcount=197

Sam claiming the torso murders had no witnesses, we point out he's wrong, he pretends he's never said even though everyone can read it for themselves he did say it in his previous post. Rather than admit that the he was wrong and the torso murders would have witnesses and possibly even witnesses connected to the torso killer's home/work, you guys STOP arguing logically by not acknowledging the torso murders would include witnesses and revert back into your child state of crying and insulting us

[John Wheat]

I think you'll find that we think that you're full of ****. I've posted a clear example right here: https://forum.casebook.org/showpost....&postcount=197

Sam claiming the torso murders had no witnesses, we point out he's wrong, he pretends he's never said even though everyone can read it for themselves he did say it in his previous post. Rather than admit that the he was wrong and the torso murders would have witnesses and possibly even witnesses connected to the torso killer's home/work, you guys STOP arguing logically by not acknowledging the torso murders would include witnesses and revert back into your child state of crying and insulting us

But I've never mentioned witnesses in connection with the Torso murders. The example you've given relates to Sam only.

[Sam Flynn]

But I've never mentioned witnesses in connection with the Torso murders. The example you've given relates to Sam only.

Besides, Rocky entirely misrepresented what I said. Even if that weren't the case, his saying that I'm full of **** is a breach of Forum rules.

[RockySullivan]

Besides, Rocky entirely misrepresented what I said. Even if that weren't the case, his saying that I'm full of **** is a breach of Forum rules.

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Why put himself in a position to be seen by witnesses in the first place? The Ripper murders were the diametric opposite of the torso crimes in that respect alone, never mind the other differences.
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Kind regards, Sam Flynn

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[Sam Flynn]

That's not the same as your categorical, and incorrect, assertion of "Sam claiming the torso killings would have no witnesses". Did I say that? No, I didn't.

[RockySullivan]

That's not the same as your categorical, and incorrect, assertion of "Sam claiming the torso killings would have no witnesses". Did I say that? No, I didn't.

You said why put himself in a position to be seen by witnesses. Weren't you implying that torso killer wasn't putting himself in a position to be seen by witnesses while the ripper was?

[Sam Flynn]

You said why put himself in a position to be seen by witnesses. Weren't you implying that torso killer wasn't putting himself in a position to be seen by witnesses while the ripper was?

Correct, but that is not the same as my saying there WERE no witnesses, which is what you wrongly claimed I said. As to the covert acts of murder and dismemberment themselves, there almost certainly were no witnesses, unless an accomplice had been involved. Either way, that's vastly different to killing, disembowelling and eviscerating in the open street.

[RockySullivan]

Correct, but that is not the same as my saying there WERE no witnesses, which is what you wrongly claimed I said. As to the covert acts of murder and dismemberment themselves, there almost certainly were no witnesses, unless an accomplice had been involved. Either way, that's vastly different to killing, disembowelling and eviscerating in the open street.

Where was the killer killing/dismembering? If it was a location connected to him, bringing a living victim there can been witnessed and then is a direct connection to him. If someone witnessed the ripper in the middle of a murder in the open street the witness doesn't know him and the open street doesn't lead to his identity.

[FrankO]

Hi Abby,

Nope. he went from low risk to high risk. Killing couples in cars in secluded place at night where he could drive up shoot and drive away quickly-low risk.
Then to donning a crazy outfit and attacking a couple far away from his car stabbing them instead of shooting them in day time. Incredible high risk.

Well, then we seem to have very different views on what risk is. The Lake Berryessa location was rather remote, the murderer had a gun and ropes with him to control his victims and he had his victims lie on the ground on their belly before he stabbed them. As there weren’t any people directly around or to be particularly expected close-by, I don't consider this attack to have been an "incredibly high risk".

Re-reading the whole case, I have to admit that the Stine murder was much more risky (similar to the risk the Ripper took) than the earlier murders and than I remembered it, but the Zodiac didn’t commit any series that carried the risk the Ripper series carried, so not what I’m looking for.

are you kidding? he went from a highly planned out effective ruse to going berserk in a sorority house. about as high a risk as you can take.

Nope, I’m not kidding. Even though the ruse was smartly contrived, during the abduction series Bundy wasn’t as careful as you seem to see him. He let victims get away (to become witnesses), allowed witnesses to see him using his ruse, to know he drove a Volkswagen Bug, he called himself Ted when he spoke to potential victims and didn’t clean his car (enough) before he got rid of it (leaving important evidence in it).

Furthermore, yes, the murders at Chi Omega were more risky than the abductions, but, still, indoors and he kept his assaults silent enough as to not wake anybody. Also, he didn’t treat his Chi Omega victims differently than earlier victims. He hit them over the head with a blunt instrument, strangled, raped and sodomized them. So, in that sense, he didn’t go any more berserk than in earlier cases. Bundy’s attacks on 15 January 1978 are logical when you consider that he hadn’t killed for about 2.5 years. There’s no such gap between the Torso and Ripper series.

[John Wheat]

Besides, Rocky entirely misrepresented what I said. Even if that weren't the case, his saying that I'm full of **** is a breach of Forum rules.

I'm aware of that. For someone who claims to be logical. Rocky hasn't demonstrated much logic instead he's illogical and wrong frequently.

[RockySullivan]

The Ripper and The Torso Killer were two different killers. Anyone who doesn't think so is an idiot.

[RockySullivan]

Zodiac didn’t commit any series that carried the risk the Ripper series carried, so not what I’m looking for

Hiya Frank, Like Abs said Lake Berryessa was risky but shooting the cab driver who just drove you somewhere in a residential area of San Francisco at like 9:55 is crazy risky. But spending extra time cutting a piece of the victim's shirt, risking getting bloodied all while some kids are watching out the window and then getting stopped by some cops and still walking off is insane.