torso maps

[RockySullivan]

It must have been a pain in the ass getting that torso in there rocky. He did it for a reason.

the reason most likely being that he was familiar with the vault and felt that was a good place to put it? Because of the proximity of the building to the embankment I dont think it was a message to scotland yard

[jerryd]

the reason most likely being that he was familiar with the vault and felt that was a good place to put it? Because of the proximity of the building to the embankment I dont think it was a message to scotland yard

Hi Rocky,

Daily Telegraph Oct 3, 1888:

"When there, instead of throwing the body into the large open well dug to supply water, or secreting it beneath some of the countless heaps of soil and rubbish lying about, he conveyed it, almost fifty yards, through a network of partly underground passages to a remote corner of the building."

Of all the places in the vault, the torso and leg ended up within feet of each other in the same vault the workers used to store their tools. I’m not too sure the body was conveyed there from the outside. Perhaps the murder and dismemberment started and ended in that basement.

With Jackson and Rainham the majority of the parts were located. Pinchin and Whitehall, a total of 3 legs and an arm were never found other than the heads of the victims. The river was just outside the hoarding at Whitehall. An easy dump it seems.

[RockySullivan]

Hi Rocky,

Daily Telegraph Oct 3, 1888:

"When there, instead of throwing the body into the large open well dug to supply water, or secreting it beneath some of the countless heaps of soil and rubbish lying about, he conveyed it, almost fifty yards, through a network of partly underground passages to a remote corner of the building."

Of all the places in the vault, the torso and leg ended up within feet of each other in the same vault the workers used to store their tools. I’m not too sure the body was conveyed there from the outside. Perhaps the murder and dismemberment started and ended in that basement.

With Jackson and Rainham the majority of the parts were located. Pinchin and Whitehall, a total of 3 legs and an arm were never found other than the heads of the victims. The river was just outside the hoarding at Whitehall. An easy dump it seems.

dear jer, i know we've discussed it at length but if the torso was brought into the vault how do you think the killer got it in there? I think its likely the torso was brought into the vault because it was packaged up, tied in string and wrapped in an old coat. However it may have been prepared that way to be taken out of the vault and dumped somewhere else. I also think it's possible the vault could have been a temporary storage rental. But if the victim was chopped up in the vault, how did the killer get her inside?

[Abby Normal]

Hi jer and rocky
I dont see a live victim going with the killer into the vault. And as rocky siad, she seemed to be packaged up.

The killer took the torso in there and deposited it.

I dont think it was some kind of direct message TO the police.

I think he had a specific reason in his own mind. Corrupting the location, an insult about the police, something along those lines.

If anyone else has any ideas why torso man left,dumped etc the torsos/parts the way he did would love to hear your thoughts.

The river
Along side the river
Pinchin street
The police vault
Shelly estate

Something going on here and its not just ramdon dumping to get rid of thats for sure.

[RockySullivan]

If anyone else has any ideas why torso man left,dumped etc the torsos/parts the way he did would love to hear your thoughts.

I think to hinder identification. Disperse the body parts so it's harder to put them together. It worked in most cases, except Liz Jackson and I believe that's because she was traced through the LE Fisher initials in her underwear?

[Abby Normal]

I think to hinder identification. Disperse the body parts so it's harder to put them together. It worked in most cases, except Liz Jackson and I believe that's because she was traced through the LE Fisher initials in her underwear?

Hi rocky
I think that may only be part of it.

Why not just throw them all in the river? Bury them, burn them whatever.

Weve got parts of jackson in the river.
Her Torso on the bank.

Parts on the shelley estate.

A torso taken with extreme risk, and considerable effort into the vault. A place where workers frequented and knew probably would be found.

Pinchin street.

The parts in the river were found, no overt attempt to sink. Het kept throwing them in as is.

Something else is going on imho. Some weird reason to the killer.

[jerryd]

Hi jer and rocky
I dont see a live victim going with the killer into the vault. And as rocky siad, she seemed to be packaged up.

The torso itself was packaged up in clothing. Presumably the victims own clothing. The leg was buried and not parceled. The arm had a string attached but bare otherwise.

[Abby Normal]

The torso itself was packaged up in clothing. Presumably the victims own clothing. The leg was buried and not parceled. The arm had a string attached but bare otherwise.

thank you jer. I just don't see a live victim going in there with him

[jerryd]

thank you jer. I just don't see a live victim going in there with him

I can appreciate that,Abby

My point is, if he had a pre-arranged “bolthole” (warehouse, house, etc), why would he not be prepared with the proper packaging equipment to parcel the parts? He seemed to use what was available.

[Abby Normal]

I can appreciate that,Abby

My point is, if he had a pre-arranged “bolthole” (warehouse, house, etc), why would he not be prepared with the proper packaging equipment to parcel the parts? He seemed to use what was available.

maybe that was part of the fantasy

[jerryd]

Abby,

The Shelley garden was on the embankment, IIRC. The Pimlico arm was on the foreshore of the embankment. Several of the other body parts from the victims were thought to have been tossed from one of the bridges near Battersea. From there they floated down the river until discovery. In my mind there weren’t multiple drops of body parts at each location they were found. The common starting point seems to be The Battersea area. To me that points to the perp living or working in that area

Traveling down Grosvenor Road to Battersea and back would allow tor dumping parts exactly where they were found. i.e the Pimlico arm, Shelley estate thigh,Albert Bridge and Battersea Park.

[RockySullivan]

Hi rocky
I think that may only be part of it.

Why not just throw them all in the river? Bury them, burn them whatever.

Dispersal

[Abby Normal]

Abby,

The Shelley garden was on the embankment, IIRC. The Pimlico arm was on the foreshore of the embankment. Several of the other body parts from the victims were thought to have been tossed from one of the bridges near Battersea. From there they floated down the river until discovery. In my mind there weren’t multiple drops of body parts at each location they were found. The common starting point seems to be The Battersea area. To me that points to the perp living or working in that area

Traveling down Grosvenor Road to Battersea and back would allow tor dumping parts exactly where they were found. i.e the Pimlico arm, Shelley estate thigh,Albert Bridge and Battersea Park.

yup thanks Jer

to me though this smacks of distributing parts for his own weird reasons not necessarily dispersing to hinder discovery or ID.

if he wanted to get rid of without them being found, why didn't he just chuck them all in the water? and the parts on land-why not try to hide, bury etc?

[Abby Normal]

Dispersal

Hi Rocko
dispersal for what though? certainly not an overt attempt at hiding or hindering ID.

If that were the case just chuck em all in the river. or if on land-why not try to hide, bury Etc?

he was spreading these parts all around town for his own weird reason, it had special significance for him. what it was though I don't know.

[Fisherman]

In my mind there weren’t multiple drops of body parts at each location they were found. The common starting point seems to be The Battersea area. To me that points to the perp living or working in that area

That is a very logical deduction - going on the dumping factor only.

But once we realize that we have two series of murders involving a great number of commonalities such as evicerations, heart removal, uterus removal and the taking away of the abdominal wall in flaps in both series, we must accept that the by far likeliest thing is that both series were perpetrated by the same man.

And when we work from that angle, we realize that the Ripper series seems to have nothing at all to do with Battersea - far from it. It was a series that implied that the perp lived or worked near Whitechapel.

And then we get the hybrid of a dismembered torso victim, found dumped on Ripper ground.

Very clearly, something out of the ordinary is going on here. and the solution is not to tell the series apart - that is effectively hindered by the glaring commonalities. Instead, we must accept that the man who killed in Whitechapel and St Georges had a reason for dumping his body parts from the torso killings much further to the west, generally speaking. And that reason may have been a practical one or something that carried another significance to him.

Myself, I find it very hard not to accept that the torso murders had an element of attention-seeking to them. As he went along, he must have learnt that the parcels drifted down the Thames surfaced all over central London - if he did not know that from the outset and sought that effect, that is. Add to this that he placed parts in the garden of Percy Shelleys estate and in the cellar vaults of Scotland Yards, and it all pans out nicely.

I fully understand that if this is what happened, then we are looking at a unique killer. But to be frank, very many serial killers are unique, one way or another.

I regard it as a given that we are dealing with one killer only. And that makes it all the more fascinating to try and understand what he did.