TORSOS: 1888 'An Exercise In Forensic Medicine' > Liz Jackson & Whitehall

[Archaic]

Here are two complete dissertations written by Dr. Charles Hebbert, describing in minute detail the forensics of 4 different Torso Murders:

'AN EXERCISE IN FORENSIC MEDICINE, 1888'

> Part I was written in 1888 and covers " two Torsos found in the past year ", which are the July 1887 Torso and the 1888 Whitehall Torso.

> Part II was written in 1889 and covers the Elizabeth Jackson Murder and the Pinchin Torso of that year.

These two dissertations were written as instructional aids for students of Forensic Medicine.

They were published in two separate volumes of The Westminster Hospital Reports: 1888 and 1889. In addition to explaining various forensic techniques and offering suggestions as to proper report-writing, Hebbert several times refers to Dr. Bond and thanks him.

I think these dissertations make fascinating reading. They detail not only the condition of the bodies, but also describes how they were "reassembled" and measured in order to estimate the victim's height and appearance.
I decided to post them because they offer such valuable insight into the methods of c.1888-89 Forensic Medicine.

Please Note: On the 'Autopsy Notes' thread, Debs previously posted a summary of Bond's and Hebbert's reports as taken from 'A System Of Legal Medicine.' Here is the link to that thread; it's really a good one. http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=250

Best regards, Archaic

[Archaic]

'An Exercise In Forensic Medicine', 1888 by C. Hebbert

Last half of Hebbert's lecture on 1887 and 1888 Torsos.

[Archaic]

TORSOS: 1889 'An Exercise In Forensic Medicine, pt2 by Hebbert >Liz Jackson & Pinchin

Here is the second dissertation, discussing the 1889 cases of Elizabeth Jackson and the Pinchin Torso.

AN EXERCISE IN FORENSIC MEDICINE. (1889)

PART II.

By CHARLES A. HEBBERT.

Best regards, Archaic

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Archaic, thanks for posting this. I'm familiar with the essay, but haven't read it. Where'd you dig it up?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Archaic]

1889 'An Exercise In Forensic Medicine Pt2' by Hebbert> Liz Jackson & Pinchin

Last portion of Hebbert's lecture.

Best regards, Archaic

[Archaic]

Origin of Hebbert's Lectures

Hi, Tom.

I found Hebbert's lectures in two successive bound volumes of The Westminster Hospital Reports; 1888 & 1889.

I bet when Hebbert wrote the first lecture in 1888 covering the 1887 Torso Murder and the 1889 Whitehall Torso the poor man never dreamed that he'd be dealing with another pair of horrible torso murders in 1889!

There was no explanation in the books I found as to whether or not Hebbert ever presented these papers as oral lectures, or if they were ever published anywhere else.

I thought it was cool that one of the c.1888 methods of estimating height was the one used in Ancient Egypt which involved making finger measurements.

Best regards, Archaic

[Archaic]

Hebbert: 'Demonstrator of Anatomy' at Westminster Hospital

I just verified that Charles A. Hebbert taught Anatomy at the Westminster Hospital.

So I believe I was correct when I suspected that his two 'Exercise in Anatomy' papers were prepared as lectures rather than as journal articles.

Here is an article from The Morning Advertiser, October 9, 1888 discussing the inquest testimony of Dr. Bond and Dr. Hebbert regarding
the Whitehall Torso. Towards the bottom it states that Hebbert is a "demonstrator of Anatomy" at Westminster Hospital.

Whitehall Torso Inquest, Morning Advertiser, Oct. 9, 1888: http://www.casebook.org/press_report.../18881009.html

Best regards, Archaic

[Phil Carter]

Archaic,

Excellent posting. I took a great deal of time to read these papers, as I believe they hold some important things. I noticed the greater detail in these reports than what we have of a "Ripper" victim... I wonder why?

best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Archaic,

...I noticed the greater detail in these reports than what we have of a "Ripper" victim... I wonder why?

best wishes

Phil

Hello again Archaic,

What I meant by that was that I realise it was for a lecture, but the details here are way, way more detailed than the inquest papers or knowledge of them we have from newspapers of the time. And I wonder why that was the case. Because the details here reveal masses of stuff. Things that could have been useful in the JTR victims reports.

best wishes

Phil

[perrymason]

Dont we have a similar kind of notching of the 5th and 6th cervical vertebrae in some Canonicals? The 2 incisions I thought was interesting as well, although they were made in circular fashion starting from the rear.

Best regards and thanks Arch...your digging around is making some good information available to all here....much obliged pal.

Michael

[Tom_Wescott]

Our own Debra Arif is a bit of an authority on the Torso murders and might have had these reports in her files for some time. I'm not sure. If not, she'd be able to add some additional insight into them. I know another writer had these and had prepared a long essay for Ripper Notes a few years ago, but never got Dan all his material, so it was never published. He may have had some other Gebbert materials at his disposal. The writer was named S Ryan something (started with a G and was a French name I believe. Skips me at the moment).

The only book published on the Torso murders thus far is from R Michael Gordon, who is known to be a bit loose with the facts, not to mention obsessed with the idea that George Chapman killed literally everyone in the LVP. Although Gordon's sources are virtually all newspapers, his book makes for an exciting read. My mouth has been watering ever since for a more thorough investigation into these interesting crimes.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Archaic]

Re: Level Of Detail

Thanks Phil & Mike, I'm very glad that you are finding these lectures interesting. I'm a read-aholic anyway, so I enjoy finding them.
I decided that I might as well share them because so many other members have generously shared their info with me and I wanted to reciprocate.

As to the questions about the level of detail, I think the difference is primarily due to the fact that newspapers, inquest reports, and professional journals have different purposes. They are also aimed at quite different audiences.
Personally, I find the scholarly articles written by well-educated professionals observing events as they unfold the most thought-provoking.

These two lectures were written by Hebbert for presentation to his Anatomy classes at Westminster Hospital. Hebbert's purpose in writing these lectures was to use the 4 recent Torso Murder investigations (in which he himself was involved) as case studies in order to explain various aspects of Forensic Medicine to his students.

Therefore he is being being extremely thorough in his observations of the condition of the corpses, and when discussing the various ways by which dismembered bodies can be measured in order to estimate the victim's living height. Notice that in the 1889 Elizabeth Jackson case, which is the one in which the body was actually identified, Hebbert makes a note at the end saying that their estimates of height were proved correct.

On the other hand, there were other elements of the individual crimes reported at the Inquests which Hebbert doesn't mention here simply because that is not the focus of his Anatomy class. Nor does he speculate about the nature of the killer's motive. But all the aspects which he does focus upon are described to an extremely high level of detail. As he states in the beginning, he wants his students to learn to "notice everything".

Newspapers were written for a different purpose and a more varied audience than were professional journals, lectures, and books. They usually stick to a combination of the basic facts and whatever contributes to an exciting story. In the 1880's-90's penny-papers and 'sensationalism' was the order of the day, so this is reflected in the newspapers. Of course some papers were much more scrupulous than others in sticking to the facts rather than repeating rumors and speculation.

Frankly, I take everything I read in the newspapers with a grain of salt, because I have no way of knowing who wrote it or why, if they were actually at the scene, where they acquired their information, or if it was ever officially corroborated. As we know a great deal of what was reported in the papers later turned out to be incorrect.

What I think is helpful in studying a 120-year-old historical event is to compare all the different information sources we can find, from the 1880's to the present day. I know that Debs has done a good job of compiling information on the Torso cases, and she helped to spark my interest in these cases.

I have more articles and excerpts to post, and if my fellow members find it interesting and useful, I'll be happy.

Best regards, Archaic

[Archaic]

Rippercast On Thames Torso Murders

Here's a link to the excellent Rippercast that Debs did on the Thames Torso Murders. I've listened to it numerous times; it's really good.

The title is "He Is Not Dead But Liveth."

http://www.casebook.org/podcast/listen.html?id=56

Best regards, Archaic

[Natalie Severn]

Well Tom its easy to skit about Chapman killing people -"all over the place " but actually he could well have been.Today the big news item in the UK on all channels is about a serial killer,aged 60+, named Peter Tobin. Tobin has been in jail serving life for the murder committed recently - in 2006 -of a Polish student.However his DNA then linked him to an unsolved murder in 1991 on 15 year old Vicky Hamilton and today he was convicted of yet another murder,that of Dinah McNicol aged 18 .Both girls had been drugged then strangled and buried in his garden in Margate.
What made it very difficult for police was the way he was on the move all the time and changing his name .He murdered in places as far apart as Glasgow and Margate,but police are convinced his murders go way back to the 60"s when three women were murdered in Scotland and a man nicknamed "Bible John" was suspected who disappeared very quickly .Tobin was known to turn to preaching from time to time.
The investigation now covers a 40 year period,in several different towns and cities.
His wife says he beat her,threatened her and cut the head off their pet dog when its barking annoyed him.
A large stash of hidden jewelry has been discovered in two of the places he lived at and is thought by police to have belonged to numbers of victims.
In all the police suspect him of 48 murders all over the UK
They say that given what they now know about serial killers ,it is highly likely he began to kill a long time before 1991 when he was already nearing middle age .They think it is much more likely that he was murdering in the 60"s in his twenties.

[Suzi]

Here's a link to the excellent Rippercast that Debs did on the Thames Torso Murders. I've listened to it numerous times; it's really good.

The title is "He Is Not Dead But Liveth."

http://www.casebook.org/podcast/listen.html?id=56

Best regards, Archaic

That's a great one Archy
Good Old Debs!!!!
Wonder how many people here actually did get kicked off by Stephen Knight- I know I did....a dark lurking interest before that and then OMG- all down/up hill from there!