autopsy notes

[Debra A]

topic is torso killings...wrong thread, go to Elizabeth Jackson thread>uterus>foetus>why.?..then we can talk...I don't want Sam getting a hot sweat.

[Debra A]

You're obviously stretching yourself too far posting as Dougie and Mr P

[Mr Poster]

Hi ho DebraA

Have now read your delightfully presented piece about Jacksons pieces.

And you are right. It is a torso killing.

p

[Cap'n Jack]

Debs, check out this one:

JAMES GREENACRE, SARAH GALE, Killing > murder, Killing > murder, 3rd April 1837.

[Gideon Fell]

Debs, check out this one:

JAMES GREENACRE, SARAH GALE, Killing > murder, Killing > murder, 3rd April 1837.

From the book of odd coincidences: Sarah Gale died in 1888.

[Cap'n Jack]

As I said, Gideon, it was a good year for the roses.

[Godgifu]

Debs,

Now that is intriguing.

Forgive my ignorance but would such procedures be conducted for breast cancer in that period?

Monty

Recently I was reading a very interesting book about the fashioning of Gray's Anatomy, and apparently the information about the illustrator, Henry Carter, is more plentiful than information about Henry Gray.
In any case, Carter was apparently asked to make some illustrations of a breast tumor before it was to be surgically removed, and this would have been in 1850.

[Christine]

Breast cancer is one of the few cancers that can be seen without cutting the patient open, and has been treated by breast amputation since ancient times. (Ick, I know. )

[kjab3112]

Hi Debra

Just read Hebbert's reports within the Westminster Hospital Reports of 1888 and 1889 (both available through archive.org, volumes 4 and 5) and agree with most of your summary. Reading the reports does give a definite hint of Jack, especially with the midline abdominal incisions, but the ones where the neck was found seem to have a different method of cut. Whereas Jack started below the angle of the left jaw and cut across the larynx/voice box, Torso cut either side and joined them up. The bigger question then is how did they (presumably) bleed to death?

For those with the illegal abortion excuse, my reading only gives Elizabeth Jackson as being pregnant, and even then so far gone abortion would be unlikely.

Regards

Paul

[Debra A]

Hi Debra

Just read Hebbert's reports within the Westminster Hospital Reports of 1888 and 1889 (both available through archive.org, volumes 4 and 5) and agree with most of your summary. Reading the reports does give a definite hint of Jack, especially with the midline abdominal incisions, but the ones where the neck was found seem to have a different method of cut. Whereas Jack started below the angle of the left jaw and cut across the larynx/voice box, Torso cut either side and joined them up. The bigger question then is how did they (presumably) bleed to death?

For those with the illegal abortion excuse, my reading only gives Elizabeth Jackson as being pregnant, and even then so far gone abortion would be unlikely.

Regards

Paul

Hi Paul
Thanks for your thoughts. I agree with you about the abortion issue, no abortion was performed and no evidence of an attempt was found. If Elizabeth had died as a result of an attempt using poison and died before a miscarriage was achieved then why mutilate the body in such a way as draw attention to the fact one had been attempted? Why not leave a dismembered pregnant woman? That's just a couple of things I wonder about.

Is it possible that someone cut the throats in the same way in the torso cases and then chopped off the heads in a different position that obliterated all traces of a cut throat?

[kjab3112]

Difficult to be sure. From the autopsy data I've accumulated from the Ripper murders so far, only MJK mentions the anatomical as opposed to physical location of the cuts. Of the latter three torso bodies where the neck was found, the decapitation (but might have been an earlier cut) went through the cricoid cartilage of the larynx or voice box (the hard bit below the Adam's Apple). In MJK the cut went through the the cricoid cartilage.

However, the Torso's appear to have been cut from the front around to the back (from my reading) whereas Jack went from the left side across to the right. That said the join at the back was not smooth with the Torso's so it would not be impossible to have been an extension of a jack style of cut.

Regard

Paul

[Fisherman]

Difficult to be sure. From the autopsy data I've accumulated from the Ripper murders so far, only MJK mentions the anatomical as opposed to physical location of the cuts. Of the latter three torso bodies where the neck was found, the decapitation (but might have been an earlier cut) went through the cricoid cartilage of the larynx or voice box (the hard bit below the Adam's Apple). In MJK the cut went through the the cricoid cartilage.

However, the Torso's appear to have been cut from the front around to the back (from my reading) whereas Jack went from the left side across to the right. That said the join at the back was not smooth with the Torso's so it would not be impossible to have been an extension of a jack style of cut.

Regard

Paul

Could it be that the Ripper neck cuts were about diverting the blood away from the cutter, whereas the torso neck cuts could have been delivered to dead bodies, lying on their backs with no blood pressure? The 1873 torso victim was probably killed by a blow or two to the temple.

[kjab3112]

Hi Fisherman

I think Debra was asking could the torso been to have disguise a ripperesque cut and, personally, I don't think there is evidence to say no but there is doubt.

The ripper cuts were almost certainly done whilst on their back AND to direct the blood away from the slayer. I apologise I've not yet looked into the 1873 victim's likely autopsy findings. There was however evidence that the later torso victim's died of exsanguination too.

Paul

[Fisherman]

Hi Fisherman

I think Debra was asking could the torso been to have disguise a ripperesque cut and, personally, I don't think there is evidence to say no but there is doubt.

The ripper cuts were almost certainly done whilst on their back AND to direct the blood away from the slayer. I apologise I've not yet looked into the 1873 victim's likely autopsy findings. There was however evidence that the later torso victim's died of exsanguination too.

Paul

Thatīs true - but in the torso cases, we do not know what condition the victims were when they had their necks cut. They could have been drugged, for example, offering no resistance. Different circumstances can have led to different types of cuts.

[Jon Guy]

However, the Torso's appear to have been cut from the front around to the back (from my reading) whereas Jack went from the left side across to the right.

Hi Paul

In the cases of Chapman and Kelly, the Ripper did cut from the front and right around the back of the neck.