Whitehall Inquest Testimony

[Joshua Rogan]

I don't know if it was brought up in the other thread (I'm still reading through it) so I don't know if this was mentioned, but I noticed that Dr Neville said of the arm (according to the Rob C article) the following;

"Was there anything to indicate whether the arm was that of a woman of refinement, or the reverse? - Well, I should say not a refined woman, for the nails were dirty.
That might be due to immersion in the dirty water of the river? - Certainly; but I also observed that the nails were not neatly trimmed, as a lady’s generally are."

Whereas Dr Hebbert said the opposite;

"The wrist is small, the hands long, with tapering fingers; the nails are small, flat, and well formed, and have been carefully trimmed"

Can they have had such opposing views of the nails? Or would Dr Neville have trimmed them in the course of his examination - in which case, did he not mention that to Hebbert and Bond?

[jerryd]

Good thread. I see you've already looked into the Wainwright murder

We did have a nice discussion on that thread. A lot of helpful information came out. Yes, I have, and still am, researching the Wainwrights. Mainly Thomas and William. I see you started a Wainwright thread, which I hope to jump in on sometime soon.

As far as this discussion, I concur with Steve that there are inconsistencies in testimony. It's hard to believe several of the workmen state they are positive the body was not in the spot until very recently before the discovery. Dr. Bond boldly states they were mistaken. In the thread on the jtrforum that you refer to, Debs and I discussed this issue. She raised many good points in support of Dr. Bond and Hebbert's idea that the body had been there for a lot longer period of time. Deep down I am still having trouble accepting their (Bond and Hebbert) conclusions. Who am I to question the medical experts of the day, though?

Incidentally, Dr. Bond was present at the Wainwright case as well.

[Joshua Rogan]

The station was open. Here is a bit more info on the underground tunnels. Maybe you have seen this as you mentioned access from Parliament?

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread....use#post291635 (post #97)

Good thread. I see you've already looked into the Wainwright murder

[Joshua Rogan]

http://www.ripperologist.biz/pdf/ripperologist133.pdf

Thanks Jerry! And thanks Rob for the sketch!

[Joshua Rogan]

I just saw that the mortuary identification had been a recent one when the report was published on the 30th Oct/beginning of November so looks like my idea is a duffer; unless Lilly Vass' mother hadn't the courage to look at the actual remains before that day but had only looked at the clothing and photograph previously but plucked up the courage to look at the actual remains because it was her final chance?

That makes a lot of sense.
On the other hand, the report of the id I posted said an 'old woman'....if Lily was only 17 or 18, would her mum be 'old'? Not impossible, I guess. Who knows?

Happily for Lily and her mum (however old), she turned out not to be the victim.

[Debra A]

I just saw that the mortuary identification had been a recent one when the report was published on the 30th Oct/beginning of November so looks like my idea is a duffer; unless Lilly Vass' mother hadn't the courage to look at the actual remains before that day but had only looked at the clothing and photograph previously but plucked up the courage to look at the actual remains because it was her final chance?

[Debra A]

Thanks Debra! I'd not heard of Lily Vass before, but a quick google brought up this thread on the JTRForums;

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=19769

That report of the Lily id is from the 8th Oct, whereas the one I found was from 30th, so can't be an early report. It could be a garbled re-reporting of it though. Or a completely separate id attempt.

I too read a news report (can't find it now, I really should make more notes) that mentioned possible scarring on one breast, but went on to say something like 'or a peculiarity of decomposition'. So it may not necessarily be the quality of the photo (or lack of) - the torso was said to be far gone in decomposition and full of maggots. Also the skin peeling off of the foot was mistaken for a piece of stocking by the finders, so not easy to identify even in the flesh, as it were. But of course, only seeing a photo would make it even harder.

You could be right, Joshua.
There are fuller reports about the funeral in other papers and dated around the same time of 30th Oct and they say that 'among' the people who visited the mortuary had been an elderly woman who thought it was her daughter, missing since August. I was looking at it from the perspective that the reporters may be just reporting back on what identifications had taken place since the torso found, now the remains were to be buried, and Lilly Vass' mother was definitely one of the people who visited the mortuary to view the remains she thought may be her daughter.
It's quite possible it refers to an un-named woman though.

[jerryd]

Thanks Jerry, good find.

The sketch is in Rob's Rip article, so thank him.

[jerryd]

Do you have a link to the Ripperologist article? I don't seem to be able to download it.

http://www.ripperologist.biz/pdf/ripperologist133.pdf

[jerryd]

The station was open. Here is a bit more info on the underground tunnels. Maybe you have seen this as you mentioned access from Parliament?

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread....use#post291635 (post #97)

[Joshua Rogan]

I thought this sketch would be of help. I must thank Rob Clack and his article in Ripperologist 133 about the Whitehall Torso (an excellent, informative article by the way) for the reference to the Evening News where this sketch is located. I downloaded this from that newspaper.

Thanks Jerry, good find. The sketch gives a rough idea whereabouts the torso was found, but I was hoping it would give a little more detail about the maze-like layout of the foundations themselves. Ah well. I think I saw another report that said it had a sketch, here in the press reports section. Sadly the pic itself isn't on the site, but if I can find it again it would be good to download that too and see if there's any extra info.
Do you have a link to the Ripperologist article? I don't seem to be able to download it.

The hoarding was stated to be about 7 feet in height. This gives an idea of the difficulty involved in getting the trunk of a body and a leg over the hoarding. In addition, the "depositor" of the body parts must have had a tool, such as a shovel, to dig down 5" to 6" to bury the leg. This leads me to believe he had help or made a couple of trips into the vault with the parts.

The other option to gain entry into the vault mentioned is the gate at Cannon Row with the "secret cord" that only the workers knew about.

I originally thought the leg was buried unnoticed by waste soil when the trench was dug, but apparently that was dug as early as mid June, so unlikely. Is it possible that the depositor broke into the shed where tools were stored to find a shovel, thus inadvertently leading the workmen to subsequently hide their tools in the very vault where the torso was dumped? Or is that too coincidental?

I read that the hoarding was increased in height by 3 feet after the finding of the torso, making it impossible to scale. But I'm not sure if the 7 feet you mention is the before or after height. Nevertheless, there are a couple of reports that some men were seen to climb over it and open the gate;

Daily News 16 Oct
"The police are said to be in possession of what is likely to prove an important piece of evidence in connection with the discovery of the mutilated body in a cell of the new police buildings at Westminster. It has been supplied by an inhabitant of Llanelly, South Wales. He happened to be in Cannon row on the Saturday before the body was found, and at an hour when the place was practically deserted. His attention was directed to a man who climbed over a hoarding into the ground whereon the new police building is being erected, and where afterwards the body was discovered. Two other men who were with him had a barrow on which was a bundle. The whole proceeding struck the observer as being strange, and afterwards, when the remains were found, he handed in his information, and also a description of the man. The result is that a workman has since been interviewed in the vicinity, who admits having been on the spot on the day in question, though his business there is not very clear. Beyond this the police, it is said, have no clue."

However, this was discounted shortly after;

Evening News 17th Oct
"The information from a person at Llanelly, South Wales, to the effect that on Saturday before the discovery at Whitehall he saw a man climb the railings, other men, with a truck on which was a bag being in waiting, has been investigated by the detective officers who have the case in hand with the result that the incident has been ascertained to have no connection with the placing of the trunk in the vault. A workman got over the railings in Cannon-row to open a door which was fastened from the inside, so as to enable another man to carry in a bag of sand which was on the truck. Inspector Marshall and Sergeant Rose are pursuing their inquiries in the neighbourhood of Pimlico. A theory has been advanced that the murdered woman was a foreign unfortunate."

I suggest another possibility of access to the vault, not mentioned by police or press, is the underground tunnel that led to the site from the Westminster Bridge Station that was completed during the building of the National Opera House some years before.

Yes, that's an intriguing possibility. I think I mentioned in an earlier post that the tunnel also connected to the Houses of Parliament. Do you know if the station was open at that time, or still under construction?

[Joshua Rogan]

Thanks Debra! I'd not heard of Lily Vass before, but a quick google brought up this thread on the JTRForums;

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=19769

That report of the Lily id is from the 8th Oct, whereas the one I found was from 30th, so can't be an early report. It could be a garbled re-reporting of it though. Or a completely separate id attempt.

I too read a news report (can't find it now, I really should make more notes) that mentioned possible scarring on one breast, but went on to say something like 'or a peculiarity of decomposition'. So it may not necessarily be the quality of the photo (or lack of) - the torso was said to be far gone in decomposition and full of maggots. Also the skin peeling off of the foot was mistaken for a piece of stocking by the finders, so not easy to identify even in the flesh, as it were. But of course, only seeing a photo would make it even harder.

[Debra A]

That's all I've found so far. It would have been good if they'd given the old woman's name, then we might have a possible name for the victim.
There's something inexpressibly sad about viewing a photo of a torso and thinking it might be your daughter...

As for the leaving the victim in their own clothes, that says to me that they didn't have any connection to the killer/dismemberer, so identifying the victim wouldn't lead police to his door. Or he just wasn't thinking straight.

It could be an early report of the possible ID as Lily Vass by her mother. Lilly Vass was alive and well after in the 1891 and also married sfter 1888. This research was done a few years ago but Bruce Robinson repeated this ID story in his book 'They all love Jack', without knowing this had been researched and Lily Vass traced in the records after 1888.

I think there was also one other possible ID mentioned but I forget the name now.

Re, the photograph-the body was supposed to have been propped up on a barrel and box so that the full extent of the height and limb length could be appreciated. One newspaper reporter who saw the photographs commented that he expected they would be reproduced in some form in the illustrated papers. alluding to the fact they traded on the gruesomeness of such things
.
The same journalist also commented that going by the photograph, identification should be easy because the victim had obviously had breast surgery. He had mistaken the deep indents of the string that had been used to wrap the torso parcel as scars from an op.
I think that also proves how difficult it is to try and determine what is presented in photographs like the MJK crime scene. Even with a first generation print a journalist misinterpreted what he saw in the Whitehall case simply because of the quality of the pic.

[jerryd]

I thought this sketch would be of help. I must thank Rob Clack and his article in Ripperologist 133 about the Whitehall Torso (an excellent, informative article by the way) for the reference to the Evening News where this sketch is located. I downloaded this from that newspaper.

The hoarding was stated to be about 7 feet in height. This gives an idea of the difficulty involved in getting the trunk of a body and a leg over the hoarding. In addition, the "depositor" of the body parts must have had a tool, such as a shovel, to dig down 5" to 6" to bury the leg. This leads me to believe he had help or made a couple of trips into the vault with the parts.

The other option to gain entry into the vault mentioned is the gate at Cannon Row with the "secret cord" that only the workers knew about.

I suggest another possibility of access to the vault, not mentioned by police or press, is the underground tunnel that led to the site from the Westminster Bridge Station that was completed during the building of the National Opera House some years before.

London Evening News October 3, 1888

[Joshua Rogan]

Nice catch man! Any follow up to this? It makes sense a victims family would recongize the clothes, which is why it was strange the killer dumped the remains in their clothes...like the LE Fisher undies

That's all I've found so far. It would have been good if they'd given the old woman's name, then we might have a possible name for the victim.
There's something inexpressibly sad about viewing a photo of a torso and thinking it might be your daughter...

As for the leaving the victim in their own clothes, that says to me that they didn't have any connection to the killer/dismemberer, so identifying the victim wouldn't lead police to his door. Or he just wasn't thinking straight.