Whitehall Inquest Testimony

[Elamarna]

So Steve, do you think it's just coincidence, or could there be a connection between the dump site of the arm and the torso?

Joshua

I need to go and check a few things before i give a considered reply

get back ASAP


Steve

[Joshua Rogan]

So Steve, do you think it's just coincidence, or could there be a connection between the dump site of the arm and the torso?

[jerryd]

Joshua,

I certainly missed it, I piced up on the dead animals and cesspits but just missed the board.

great find.

Steve

Joshua and Steve,

I haven't seen that one. Good work on digging it up. (No pun intended)

Regarding the timber deliveries, I did a bit of research into Robert Ward and Sons on the other forum. It was at their timber wharf the arm matching this body was found. Frederick Moore is the man that fished it out of the water. He worked for Ward and Sons.

Also, regarding everyone missing the parcel in the vault. There were at least 6 witnesses that were in the vault and said it could not have been there but a few days. I feel I am in the minority when I agree with the 6 witnesses but I can see the argument for the other side as well. One man was in that corner with a parrafin lamp taking measurements and swore the parcel was not there. He mentions no hoarding, though.

Regardless, it is very nice to other other sources popping up to help us sort this all out.

[Elamarna]

As it turns out, the bit about the torso being behind the piece of hoarding is also mentioned in passing by the Times 19th Oct, which I'd posted earlier in this thread (#49) without it registering.
It also may contain an explanation why none of the site workers who first discovered the torso noticed any odd smell - if the foundations smelt of damp, dead animals and sewers anyway, they may have become accustomed to the odour, but the doctors and policemen not so much.

Joshua,

I certainly missed it, I piced up on the dead animals and cesspits but just missed the board.

great find.

Steve

[Joshua Rogan]

As it turns out, the bit about the torso being behind the piece of hoarding is also mentioned in passing by the Times 19th Oct, which I'd posted earlier in this thread (#49) without it registering.
It also may contain an explanation why none of the site workers who first discovered the torso noticed any odd smell - if the foundations smelt of damp, dead animals and sewers anyway, they may have become accustomed to the odour, but the doctors and policemen not so much.

[Elamarna]

I've just come across this press report from the Star 4th Oct about where the torso was found, and don't remember seeing it posted before. It gives some idea of the layout of the foundations, and also mentions the torso was hidden behind a bit of fence leaning against the wall. If true, then it's no surprise that it might have been missed for a few weeks.

"Towards the Thames front of the site there are some underground steps. These steps lead to a door at a lower depth. An inclined plane leads to a lower level. This lower level is a vast place of arches, from which the light is partially excluded by the walls for the floors above, and is in constant shade. In one place there is a deep recess, in which, even when the sun is shining brightly outside, there is complete darkness. This leads by a dangerous way to another recess. In one corner of this furthest dark recess stands a piece of hoarding, two pieces of board held together by a cross piece, as if it had formed once part of a builder's hoarding round the building. This stands crossways against the wall, leaving a triangular space. It was within this space that the parcel containing the body was found. The devious ways which have to be taken to reach this secret spot, and the fact that this is the most secret spot on the site, lead to the conclusion that the person who placed the remains there must have been well acquainted with the place, and the deposit must have been made in the day."


Also in the same article is an intriguing suggestion;

"The body was in a condition which showed that a vain endeavor had been made to arrest putrefaction, and the idea in bringing it to the Thames Embankment was probably to cast it into the Thames, and it would most likely have been cast there three weeks ago but for the prompt discovery of the arm and the vigilance observed in all parts of the river. It is thought possible that the bundle was conveyed by the carts which enter at the side of the building and deliver materials. It is remarkable that the severed arm was found near a wharf whence wood for building is carted to places where building is being carried on."

Nice find Joshua,

I have certainly not seen it before, maybe Jerry or Debs have.

Need to see if there is another source for this I guess, maybe look tonight.


Steve

[Joshua Rogan]

I've just come across this press report from the Star 4th Oct about where the torso was found, and don't remember seeing it posted before. It gives some idea of the layout of the foundations, and also mentions the torso was hidden behind a bit of fence leaning against the wall. If true, then it's no surprise that it might have been missed for a few weeks.

"Towards the Thames front of the site there are some underground steps. These steps lead to a door at a lower depth. An inclined plane leads to a lower level. This lower level is a vast place of arches, from which the light is partially excluded by the walls for the floors above, and is in constant shade. In one place there is a deep recess, in which, even when the sun is shining brightly outside, there is complete darkness. This leads by a dangerous way to another recess. In one corner of this furthest dark recess stands a piece of hoarding, two pieces of board held together by a cross piece, as if it had formed once part of a builder's hoarding round the building. This stands crossways against the wall, leaving a triangular space. It was within this space that the parcel containing the body was found. The devious ways which have to be taken to reach this secret spot, and the fact that this is the most secret spot on the site, lead to the conclusion that the person who placed the remains there must have been well acquainted with the place, and the deposit must have been made in the day."


Also in the same article is an intriguing suggestion;

"The body was in a condition which showed that a vain endeavor had been made to arrest putrefaction, and the idea in bringing it to the Thames Embankment was probably to cast it into the Thames, and it would most likely have been cast there three weeks ago but for the prompt discovery of the arm and the vigilance observed in all parts of the river. It is thought possible that the bundle was conveyed by the carts which enter at the side of the building and deliver materials. It is remarkable that the severed arm was found near a wharf whence wood for building is carted to places where building is being carried on."

[Elamarna]

Hi Deb and Jerry,

Thanks for the links.

it makes me think that the leg was there all the time, just very well concealed, if it took the dog to locate it, obviously the smell was not enough for people to detect..

I also saw that Bond changed his mind about how long the torso had been there, after reexamination of the site when the leg was found and went from a few days to several weeks.

I am really inclined to believe that the workman either deliberately lied about it not being there on the Saturday or they just did not see it as it was so dark, which i think is the more obvious answer.

many thanks again


steve

[Debra A]

The point was that it was so close to the main Torso part why had it not been found when the Police searched?
Well of course it was buried under soil, but apparently was only discovered because a dog was taken into the vaults to search for other parts( not by the police) and it detected the leg by smell.

Interesting

steve

Hi Steve,

Just for interest--as well as Jerry's link to the stuff on Angle, (thanks Jerry) there is also a probable photograph of Smoker, the dog who found the leg, here:

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?p=224656

Debs

[jerryd]

Hi

know its been a few weeks since we were on this thread, but i was doing some reading last night, and came across something I was not aware of with regards to the buried leg. Sure others must be aware of this but some may not be.

The point was that it was so close to the main Torso part why had it not been found when the Police searched?
Well of course it was buried under soil, but apparently was only discovered because a dog was taken into the vaults to search for other parts( not by the police) and it detected the leg by smell.

Interesting

steve

Hi Steve,

It was the second instance that a journalist injected themselves into the search and discovery of torso parts. Claude Mellor's discovery of Elizabeth Jackson's thigh at the Shelley estate was the other.

A little info on William Angle posted by Debs. http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=19316

I too find it interesting the leg was found very near the torso. I want to say, IIRC, it was found within a few feet of the torso. I seem to also recall the police were told to search the vault immediately after the torso find and found nothing at that time.

[Elamarna]

Hi

know its been a few weeks since we were on this thread, but i was doing some reading last night, and came across something I was not aware of with regards to the buried leg. Sure others must be aware of this but some may not be.

The point was that it was so close to the main Torso part why had it not been found when the Police searched?
Well of course it was buried under soil, but apparently was only discovered because a dog was taken into the vaults to search for other parts( not by the police) and it detected the leg by smell.

Interesting

steve

[RockySullivan]

Hi Rocky,
I've not read Trow's book, but the article I posted said "He happened to be in Cannon row on the Saturday before the body was found, and at an hour when the place was practically deserted". Might Trow have interpreted that as meaning "on his day off"?

I think in the book it said the worker was questioned and admitted to being their when he wasn't working. But it;s been a awhile e since I read it I know I've brought it up on here before

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi Rocky,
I've not read Trow's book, but the article I posted said "He happened to be in Cannon row on the Saturday before the body was found, and at an hour when the place was practically deserted". Might Trow have interpreted that as meaning "on his day off"?

[Joshua Rogan]

The station was open. Here is a bit more info on the underground tunnels. Maybe you have seen this as you mentioned access from Parliament?

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread....use#post291635 (post #97)

I got the info about the tunnel from a website about the opera house, can't find the link, but it might be one of the ones you also found.
This map from 1895 shows a subway running from the Houses of Parliament past the St Stephen's Club and the station to Westminster Pier. I think the station would have given access to the opera house, could this be the tunnel? If so, any potential body dumper would have to go through the station and all the subsequent foundations before even getting to the New Scotland Yard vaults. On the other hand, perhaps they entered the tunnel from the riverside?

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=18&lat=51.5016&lon=-0.1255&layers=163

[RockySullivan]

In response to Josh's post about the workman and the men with the barrow...in Trow's book there is a part about one of the workers being there on their day off. Does anyone have this?