Elizabeth Jackson-Abortion related or not?

[Debra A]

Debra

What you think is irrelevant, its what the medical experts say that counts.

Perhaps when you become a forensic pathologist or a gynaecologist then you may be in a position to challenge someone of equal standing.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Dr Biggs stated that there was no proof of abortion.

[Trevor Marriott]

I don't recall any vaginal incision mentioned in the Rainham case, perhaps you can reference it as I must have missed it. I can't see why an incision in the vaginal wall of a woman who definetly wasn't pregnant and had the uterus of someone who had never borne a child is indicative of an abortion. I seem to recall there were signs she had just menstruated too?

I cannot give you the source. I have found it in the course of gathering information into the four torsos. What I have written down is "Incision into the vaginal wall cartilage"

I will continue to search through of course unless you can come up with a similar victim who had their vaginal wall incised.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

Dr Biggs stated that there was no proof of abortion.

Yes he did, but he did say that the method he describes should not be ruled out, and would explain issues relating to the reproductive organs.

And he never suggested murder was the cause of death, equally he says that cannot be ruled out either. But again its the balance of probabilities based on what is available to us to evaluate.

I have no agenda with these torsos. My objective is to prove or disprove and that cuts both ways. I really dont give a monkeys either way, and in my opinion Jackson was not murdered.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Errata]

I would have thought it might have damaged the cervix of a woman who'd never given birth before and wasn't already in labour?

It was usually so scarring as to prevent later pregnancies. Or outright kill the patient. But it could be done with the blunt instruments they use now, as opposed to the knitting needle back alley types had access to. Where they would have gotten the graduated series of instruments necessary to do the job gently, I have no idea.

[Errata]

I don't recall any vaginal incision mentioned in the Rainham case, perhaps you can reference it as I must have missed it. I can't see why an incision in the vaginal wall of a woman who definetly wasn't pregnant and had the uterus of someone who had never borne a child is indicative of an abortion. I seem to recall there were signs she had just menstruated too?

What does a vaginal incision have to do with an abortion? The fetus is in the uterus, not the vagina. And harming the vagina will not result in spontaneous abortion the way injury to the cervix will. If that was an abortion attempt, they waited a really really long time for the pregnancy to terminate. Long enough for her to have given birth while still waiting, had she actually been pregnant.

[Fisherman]

The whole uterus was removed by the way, with a sweep of the knife that took in the upper part of her vagina and posterior portion of her bladder, so there was no attempt at life saving for Elizabeth here.

So the uterus and part of the bladder was secured "with one sweep of the knife"...

[Debra A]

So the uterus and part of the bladder was secured "with one sweep of the knife"...

That isn't in the text, fish. Sorry. Got carried away.

[Fisherman]

That isn't in the text, fish. Sorry. Got carried away.

No problem, Debra - I just realized that I should not have posted that on this thread anyhow, so sorry for that. Carry on!

[Debra A]

I cannot give you the source. I have found it in the course of gathering information into the four torsos. What I have written down is "Incision into the vaginal wall cartilage"

I will continue to search through of course unless you can come up with a similar victim who had their vaginal wall incised.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

My best guess, Trevor is that your source is actually the mention that there was an incision made from 'ensiform cartilage to pubes'.
That's an external cut from the bottom of the sternum (ribs) to the external pubic area according to my big book of anatomy for middle aged, female dummies and not an incision into the vaginal wall.

[Debra A]

What does a vaginal incision have to do with an abortion? The fetus is in the uterus, not the vagina. And harming the vagina will not result in spontaneous abortion the way injury to the cervix will. If that was an abortion attempt, they waited a really really long time for the pregnancy to terminate. Long enough for her to have given birth while still waiting, had she actually been pregnant.

Exactly, Errata.

[Debra A]

It was usually so scarring as to prevent later pregnancies. Or outright kill the patient. But it could be done with the blunt instruments they use now, as opposed to the knitting needle back alley types had access to. Where they would have gotten the graduated series of instruments necessary to do the job gently, I have no idea.

Thanks again, Errata. I just hope Trevor is paying attention to all your posts.

[Debra A]

I cannot give you the source. I have found it in the course of gathering information into the four torsos. What I have written down is "Incision into the vaginal wall cartilage"

I will continue to search through of course unless you can come up with a similar victim who had their vaginal wall incised.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Is it something Dr Biggs pointed out to you?

[Debra A]

My best guess, Trevor is that your source is actually the mention that there was an incision made from 'ensiform cartilage to pubes'.
That's an external cut from the bottom of the sternum (ribs) to the external pubic area according to my big book of anatomy for middle aged, female dummies and not an incision into the vaginal wall.

I guess I must have misunderstood the meaning of 'ensiform cartiledge' if this came from Dr Biggs and is related to the pelvic area instead.

[Trevor Marriott]

Is it something Dr Biggs pointed out to you?

No I definitely read it but for the life of me I cant now find where it came from.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Debra A]

No I definitely read it but for the life of me I cant now find where it came from.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

And you are certain it isn't the 'incision from ensiform cartiledge to pubes' you were noting originally? You do mention cartiledge in the note.