Body snatching

[Fisherman]

Fisherman,

I said there could possible be a link via copycat murders, that was a COULD be, not a WAS.

On your second point, which really is not a separate issue i was originally responding to arguments that they were direct link, I suggested IF there was a link it could be a copycat no more.

I gave a full explanation for the flaps and colon cuts, and am not convinced about the eyelids as I made clear in a previous post.

Hope that is clear

Steve

"A full explanation"?

I gave a full explanation as to why these very rare occurences would put it beynd doubt that there is a connection.

I take you point on how you were just suggesting a possible copycat deed. But as you can see, there are three raritites that would have been "copycatted", or they coincidentally occurred in both series:

Both killers cut a section of the colon away.

Both killers cut away the abominal wall in large panes.

Both killers engaged on very careful cutting around the eyes.

The odds that this was all coincidental are ridiculously high, Iīm afraid. At the very least, we have to believe in killers who very carefull kept themselves informed of small details about what the other man did, and who decided to copy it.
Or we take the obvious route and accept they were one and the same.

[Elamarna]

Didnīt you say that there was a copycat element involved, Steve? And would you not regard that a link?

On a separate note: was the reason for your suggesting a copycat element not that you thought it too odd for the colon business, the abdominal flap business and the eyelid business not to have something at all in common? That these elements were too unique not to be related in any way at all?

Fisherman,

I said there could possible be a link via copycat murders, that was a COULD be, not a WAS.

On your second point, which really is not a separate issue i was originally responding to arguments that they were direct link, I suggested IF there was a link it could be a copycat no more.

I gave a full explanation for the flaps and colon cuts, and am not convinced about the eyelids as I made clear in a previous post.

Hope that is clear

Steve

[Elamarna]

In the early ninety fifties,body dumping,on land and sea ,was widely practised under British law. Like Trevor says,to avoid cost.

Hi Harry is that so?

A source please?

given you have said this was done under British Law, please, the name of the Act of Parliament which allowed this ?

Steve

[Fisherman]

I think you need to revist the Kelly murder again. It mentions eyebrows as part of the facial mutilations not eyelids

From Dr Bonds report

"The face was gashed in all directions the nose cheeks, eyebrows and ears being partly removed"

Does it show the same identical facial mutilations in any of the other murders ? No it doesnt

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

From Hebberts "A System of Legal Medicine":

In the particular illustrative instance, the woman was murdered in a bedroom. The body was naked when found. The eyebrows, eyelids, ears, nose, lips and chin had been cut off, and the face gashed by numerous knife-cuts.

So, Trevor, had the chin not been cut off since Bond does not mention it? Did Bond list all the details that had been cut, and Hebbert was misinforming when he commented on the parts Bond did not comment on.

Which is the more likely thing:

Hebbert was correct, and there is absolutely nothing that Bond said that prohibited Hebbert from being correct, or

Hebbert was wrong, because if Bond did not mention it specifically, it could never have happened. Hebbert is also well known to lie and/or add details that were never there, or...?

Go figure, master detective. I am not the one who needs reading up.

By the way, I never said that the facial mutilations were the exact same. Nor did I say the flaps were. Or the colon sections. Or you and me.

[Trevor Marriott]

You are welcome to present any example from any remove in time where any two killers had three as unusual commonalities like these.

Or you can provide any example of a mature post of yours.

My guess is that the first task will be the easier to accomplish. Theoretically speaking, that is.

You ARE aware that four of the victims had their colons removed?

You DO know that three of them had their abdominal walls taken away?

You HAVE noticed that both the 1873 torso victim and Mary Kelly had the eyelids taken away from them?

You seem - unknowing as always - to think that only torso victims suffered these damages. But the whole point is that victims in BOTH groupings did.

Do you for one second think it is either uninteresting or something to make jokes about, Trevor?

I think you need to revist the Kelly murder again. It mentions eyebrows as part of the facial mutilations not eyelids

From Dr Bonds report

"The face was gashed in all directions the nose cheeks, eyebrows and ears being partly removed"

Does it show the same identical facial mutilations in any of the other murders ? No it doesnt

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Fisherman]

Perhaps we should change the names from the Torso Murders to

"The Colon Killer"
"The Flap Murderer"
"The Eye Monster"

You are welcome to present any example from any remove in time where any two killers had three as unusual commonalities like these.

Or you can provide any example of a mature post of yours.

My guess is that the first task will be the easier to accomplish. Theoretically speaking, that is.

You ARE aware that four of the victims had their colons removed?

You DO know that three of them had their abdominal walls taken away?

You HAVE noticed that both the 1873 torso victim and Mary Kelly had the eyelids taken away from them?

You seem - unknowing as always - to think that only torso victims suffered these damages. But the whole point is that victims in BOTH groupings did.

Do you for one second think it is either uninteresting or something to make jokes about, Trevor?

[Trevor Marriott]

Didnīt you say that there was a copycat element involved, Steve? And would you not regard that a link?

On a separate note: was the reason for your suggesting a copycat element not that you thought it too odd for the colon business, the abdominal flap business and the eyelid business not to have something at all in common? That these elements were too unique not to be related in any way at all?

Perhaps we should change the names from the Torso Murders to

"The Colon Killer"
"The Flap Murderer"
"The Eye Monster"

[Fisherman]

John

agree so much.

The shame is people talk about something they really have no idea about, and use it to try influence a serious thread.

Am clear I do not think there is a link between the Torso's and JtR, others disagree but we should based the debate on real facts.

steve

Didnīt you say that there was a copycat element involved, Steve? And would you not regard that a link?

On a separate note: was the reason for your suggesting a copycat element not that you thought it too odd for the colon business, the abdominal flap business and the eyelid business not to have something at all in common? That these elements were too unique not to be related in any way at all?

[John Wheat]

John

agree so much.

The shame is people talk about something they really have no idea about, and use it to try influence a serious thread.

Am clear I do not think there is a link between the Torso's and JtR, others disagree but we should based the debate on real facts.

steve

Hi Steve

I happen to agree with you I don't believe there was a link between The Torso Murders and JTR but as you say this is something that should be debated. I also believe that one of the best ways of finding suspects for The Torso Murders is to look at JTR suspects that may fit the bill.

Cheers John

[harry]

In the early ninety fifties,body dumping,on land and sea ,was widely practised under British law. Like Trevor says,to avoid cost.

[Trevor Marriott]

There are many problems with the medical specimen scenario-

Did medical students work nights?
Elizabeth Jackson was last seen by a witness who knew her at 9pm on 3rd June 1889. The first of her remains were recovered from the Thames the following morning, 4th June.
Elizabeth's remains were wrapped in her own clothing as was the Whitehall torso remains, including the leg still clad in a woollen stocking.

Bodies could be obtained legally. All it required was that there was no family of the deceased to come forward and object and a time limit required to wait for family or friends to claim the body first. Bodies meant for the dissecting table were treated beforehand and there were no signs of treatment and none of the doctors who examined them expressed the view that they might be looking at a medical specimen.

For a medical facility to accept illegally gained corpses would be one thing but they were doubly guilty if anyone is suggesting they then went on to dispose of the discarded illegally gotten specimens by also illegally dumping them without burial, which was their responsibility.

Yes it was their responsibility, but burials cost money. Wrapping body parts up and dumping them in the thames cost nothing.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Elamarna]

Finally a thread where all the b.s. about body snatches etc can be talked about without derailing The Torso Murders thread. Thank **** for that.

John

agree so much.

The shame is people talk about something they really have no idea about, and use it to try influence a serious thread.

Am clear I do not think there is a link between the Torso's and JtR, others disagree but we should based the debate on real facts.

steve

[John Wheat]

Finally a thread where all the b.s. about body snatches etc can be talked about without derailing The Torso Murders thread. Thank **** for that.

[Debra A]

I know you have written Tumblety may have wanted to collect organs for a cure to his poor health, or course no such cure is known to ever have existed.


Steve

Years ago I cam across a quack in the papers who was travelling the country with potions made from the uteri of small animals. I didn't make notes though and can't find the mention again, although I'm sure the name Richards crops up in the story. The potion was supposedly some 'eternal youth' concoction, but I always thought it's only a small step away from using human organs for the potions....if in fact they did contain organs at all.

[mklhawley]

Hi Mike

For a start the medical school did themselves, often establishing vast collections of specimens.
It's a little known fact that some medical schools have very large essentially private museums of anatomical displays.

I know you have written Tumblety may have wanted to collect organs for a cure to his poor health, or course no such cure is known to ever have existed.

Are you thinking of anything else?


Steve

Nope, that's it, Steve, although I will be passing on some new stuff in the near future.

Mike