2 types of knives = 2 people?

[Errata]

Note to self: Try very hard to never upset Errata.

Everyone thinks I'm a psycho killer. The truth is, I'm something much more rare and terrifying.

A stage manager for a Renaissance Festival.

I've created backdrops of everything from ships to stars (thus the scissors injury), I've choreographed fights, rigged basic necessities in ways that make Macguyver look unoriginal, I've had to cut anything that can be cut, built or scavenged just about everything else, made jewelry, props, stocks, stages, all the while dodging snakes, bees, more bees (lots of bees), a Bridge Troll (snapping turtle the size of a pony) rain, hail, and the occasional overly friendly horse or camel. I run poisonous snakes out of town, led the great Wee Turtle rescue of '02, wrangled drunks, patched up injuries, and defended my girls from aggressive rednecks. And never once have I had the proper tools for a job.

You'd be amazed at what I can do with a dagger. Not because I like daggers overmuch, but I could never hang on to scissors for more than an hour on site. And at a renaissance festival, everyone has a dagger.

It's amazing the skills you pick up when you have a really weird job.

[Wickerman]

I suppose the manner in which you did threw me a bit Jon...... and Im not used to having a logical argument agreed with. Sorry bud.

I often expect spurious speculation as a reply, though not from you.

Cheers Jon

I figured out how you may have interpreted it. I didn't see it that way at the time, I wasn't having a dig at you, the "song and dance" referred to other notions typically voiced over this murder. Nothing written by yourself.
Sorry for that.

[Tom_Wescott]

Regarding the mention of a double sided knife, perhaps that more than anything else is what caused Killeen to specify that the chest wound was unique among the 39 stabs. He describes the majority of the wounds as being from something like a "pen-knife", which doesn't definitively mean a knife with 2 sharpened and useable edges. In fact most pen knives,.. which I have plenty of, modern and antique ones..as well as daggers, bayonets and specialty blades from the 1800's..., of that period would have had only 1 sharpened blade side. The Bowie, as an example, had 2..one at the sloped edge from the tip, and the main blade, but that wouldn't leave a wound that appears to have been cut on both sides of the wound.

The knife size and the double bladed feature along with a smaller knife might not rule out one man, but one would be puzzled by the fact that he had a dagger on him while he used a small, and potentially finger amputating pen knife instead to make 38 wounds. If a killer wants to kill, and the slowness of the murder, or pro isn't a relevant factor, then why not just use the larger blade and be done with it? Much less strenuous, and far more time efficient.

Cheers

I agree with this as well. It's pretty weird. That's why I think the killer used a sword stick. It's larger, more unwieldy, whereas a pocket knife would let him get up close. I also believe the killer raped Tabram with the sword stick just as he did with the 'blunt instrument' in the case of Smith.

There were many stabs around the breast plate with the pocket knife, but they didn't get deep. That suggests to me the pocket knife was used first and then the larger blade.

The depth of the heart wound alone probably ruled out the use of the pocket knife, as well as the double-bladed nature of the blade.

The other possibility, of course, is there were two killers.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Bridewell]

The other possibility, of course, is there were two killers.

I have sometimes wondered if the attack was commenced with a smaller knife, with the killer then finding a larger and more effective weapon concealed in Tabram's clothing. It's likely, I think, that many of these street prostitutes carried some kind of weapon with which to defend themselves. Pure conjecture on my part but I think it a possibility.

[Tom_Wescott]

I have sometimes wondered if the attack was commenced with a smaller knife, with the killer then finding a larger and more effective weapon concealed in Tabram's clothing. It's likely, I think, that many of these street prostitutes carried some kind of weapon with which to defend themselves. Pure conjecture on my part but I think it a possibility.

That's a smart idea, Bridewell. She was pretty bare bones that night, it seems. She wasn't wearing a shirt. But it's not beyond the realm of possibility she had a weapon on her. A long, double-sided weapon seems a bit of a stretch, but not impossible. If he had such an item, it would have been known to someone, such as Henry Turner, and it seems they didn't mention it. I think whoever murdered Tabram planned to murder someone that night and prepared for it. You never know though, and your idea is as good as any I've heard. Damn smart.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Abby Normal]

I would imagine that the most likely situation is that a budding serial killer, who had a fascination with knives, and probably a criminal/violent history carried more than one knife, at least until he found one that he was satisfied with.

Also, if Millwood was an earlier victim I could see the ripper realizing that the smaller knife didn't quite do the trick, so he started to bring a larger one as well.

In Tabrams case. I could see a scenario where he strangles her into submission, starts stabbing her repeatedly with the smaller knife, she comes to and then he pulls out the longer one and delivers the death blow.

He realizes next time that after strangling them, he needs to cut their throat before further cutting.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Abby.That's certainly possible. As you know (but many don't), Tabram was still technically alive when her killer left her. She died from exsanguination. I don't personally see Millwood as a related attack (or even an attack) but she may have been. I see Emily Horsnell as the first, and this was an accidental murder. But he got away with it. The brutality was increased with Emma Smith and I believe she was left for dead. But she wasn't. Either of these two women could have talked, and may have talked. Martha Tabram was brutally murdered beyond any doubt so that the killer had piece of mind. He knew when he left her she wasn't saying another word. He got away with it. He was getting better, and we see that confidence manifested in the Nichols murder.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Ausgirl]

If she was a victim of JtR, I would imagine the fatal wound came first, and the rest of the stabbing was him enjoying himself with the corpse, as he obviously did on other occasions.

If it was not JtR, then she was likely, in my opinion, a victim of the same of man who attacked Millwood. Perhaps that 'clasp knife' was even the same weapon which caused those numerous smaller wounds.

I highly doubt Smith's attack was linked to Millwood's. She clearly described a gang of assailants, while Millwood reported only one.

[Tom_Wescott]

Emma Smith wasn't entirely honest, nor likely was Emily Horsnell. As for Millwood, I'm still undecided as to whether she injured herself or was actually attacked.

For reasons I already stated it's unlikely the deep heart wound was inflicted first. The circle of stab attempts in the chest area with the pocket knife, as I document in my book, point to an unsuccessful attempt to cut through to her heart with the pocket knife. This hardly would have been necessary if he'd already plunged the larger blade in first. Also, the heavy bleeding suggests other wounds were inflicted before her heart had stopped.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Errata]

The truth is a blade the size of a dagger isn't good for much. The larger the blade the fewer applications. This is an era where knife use is common. Sharpen quills, pencils, cut string for packages, pop wax seals... none of which you can do with a 10 inch blade.

It makes sense that someone carries a pen knife. The dagger is the outlier, but it does not prevent a man from needing a manageable blade.

[GUT]

Or cutting tobacco or cleaning a pipe, the list is almost endless when it comes to a pen knife.

[Ausgirl]

Emma Smith wasn't entirely honest, nor likely was Emily Horsnell. As for Millwood, I'm still undecided as to whether she injured herself or was actually attacked.

For reasons I already stated it's unlikely the deep heart wound was inflicted first. The circle of stab attempts in the chest area with the pocket knife, as I document in my book, point to an unsuccessful attempt to cut through to her heart with the pocket knife. This hardly would have been necessary if he'd already plunged the larger blade in first. Also, the heavy bleeding suggests other wounds were inflicted before her heart had stopped.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Bolded part 1: Tom, I'm looking forward to finding out how you can be so very sure these woman were all lying It's difficult to imagine a woman not known for serious mental illness and injurious attention seeking, stabbing herself repeatedly in the legs and lower torso. For a lark? Why would you also think Millwood is lying?

Bolded part 2: Not really.. it's pretty well established that considerable bleeding can occur after the heart stops. Especially where there's a lot of wounds for the blood to 'ooze' through:

If the aorta is ruptured in this way, the heart will pump blood into the tissues or the body cavities until it stops beating. Death would occur rapidly. However, this does not mean that there could be no external bleeding. This would depend on the nature of any cuts or damage to the tissues. Even when the heart stops beating, bleeding will result from any wounds which cut across blood vessels, organs, tissues or cavities which still contain fluid blood. If an autopsy is done before the blood has become fixed, there will be bleeding each time the pathologist makes a cut into the tissues.

http://netk.net.au/CrimJustice/Medical.asp

^ Which is why I at all bothered typing my suggestion that the large wound might have come first.

Martha also appears to have been clocked on the head or possibly to have had her hair pulled violently, with "an effusion of blood between the scalp and bone" - subgaleal hemorrhage, which can occur by blunt force, or quite commonly via the hair being pulled violently enough to lift the scalp away from the skull a bit.

Of note too is her brain being described as "pale", which can occur with strangulation, where flow of blood to he head is restricted. Were she strangled, it'd help make the case for her being a Ripper victim, in my mind.

So there's a couple of possible signs she was subdued before any stabbing went on, and there's no indications she was moving (trying to get away) while being stabbed. Very Ripper-like stuff. Perhaps Martha is indeed where he upgraded from small pocket knife to something larger.

[Ausgirl]

Errata, I was reading through your earlier posts, speculating on how much force is needed to drive a weapon through the breast-bone. And pondering the last bits of my post above, re head wound and -possible- strangulation and immobilisation prior to the knife attack, it occurred to me that the dynamics of driving a knife through bone while standing face to face, and that of standing or sitting over the victim and stabbing -downward- would likely be completely different. Ie, there's probably more force possible with a downward stab. Just thinking out loud, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on that.

[Ausgirl]

Gosh.. sorry for multiple posts in a row...

But also of note is that there was no blood in or around Martha's mouth. Bit unusual, for someone whose lungs were both stabbed multiple times?

Perhaps she had a very good reason for not trying to breathe.

[Errata]

Errata, I was reading through your earlier posts, speculating on how much force is needed to drive a weapon through the breast-bone. And pondering the last bits of my post above, re head wound and -possible- strangulation and immobilisation prior to the knife attack, it occurred to me that the dynamics of driving a knife through bone while standing face to face, and that of standing or sitting over the victim and stabbing -downward- would likely be completely different. Ie, there's probably more force possible with a downward stab. Just thinking out loud, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on that.

Actually there's not, though it would seem to make sense. When stabbing downward, you only have at most your upper body weight behind the blow. Depending on the position you may only get the weight of your arm. When standing, especially if you step into the blow or get a bit of a running start, you have your full body weight plus any momentum you build up. You sacrifice some of that force if your victim is not pretty stable, like up against a wall. But not as much as you give up from your lower body by kneeling or crouching.

Getting a knife through a sternum is not easy. But a lot of it depends on getting the knife in just right. All of the force has to be on the point of the knife, distributed equally all around the blade. Otherwise the tip slides. Once the point goes in, all the force has to be behind the cutting edge, not on the spine of the blade or the knife snaps. It's like hammering a nail. If the nail isn't square to the board, it doesn't penetrate the wood and skids out. Once the point is it, if the blow isn't straight on the nail, the nail bends.

The best way to line up that shot is standing. When stabbing downward, you aren't stabbing straight. You are swinging in an arc to bring the knife down. It's the natural motion of the arm. You do the same when standing up, but the angle is just enough to shift the force from the point to the cutting edge, which is what drives the blade through the knife. Or to put it another way, which is easier? Hammering a nail into a wall or into the floor? You get fewer bent nails on a wall.

You become very aware of these kinds of things if you actually do them over and over. Any idiot can do a big old highlander swing with a sword once. After the 30th time you realize that there is no way on earth people used that move in battle. It hurts. A lot.