2 types of knives = 2 people?

[DVV]

Maybe you're right, but it's hard to get around Killeen's clear statement that it was a 'dagger' which is taken to mean a knife sharp on both sides. I can't see any other reason why he would have stated 'dagger' if this was not the case.
Tom Wescott

Tom, Killeen's wording merely suggests, at least in my opinion, that the chestbone could have been pierced by something "more solid" than an ordinary knife. Had he identified something radically different, ie : sharp on both sides, I think he wouldn't have missed the opportunity to make it clear.
And clearly the murderer's knife was strong enough to stab Martha rather deeply, dozens of times.
Any solid knife can go through a chestbone, even through a skull(1).
So why not that of the George Yard's murderer ?

(1) Got this from Patty, I admit.

[Tom_Wescott]

Tom, Killeen's wording merely suggests, at least in my opinion, that the chestbone could have been pierced by something "more solid" than an ordinary knife. Had he identified something radically different, ie : sharp on both sides, I think he wouldn't have missed the opportunity to make it clear.
And clearly the murderer's knife was strong enough to stab Martha rather deeply, dozens of times.
Any solid knife can go through a chestbone, even through a skull(1).
So why not that of the George Yard's murderer ?

(1) Got this from Patty, I admit.

Patty the Kosminski theorist or Patty Cornwell? I'll have to keep this in mind. I wish you'd brought this up a year ago when I was trudging through all the Tabram stuff. LOL.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[DVV]

Patty the Kosminski theorist or Patty Cornwell? I'll have to keep this in mind. I wish you'd brought this up a year ago when I was trudging through all the Tabram stuff. LOL.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Patty "Johnnie Walker" Cornwell, Tom.
No worries, your Bank Holiday is obviously a first achievement calling for others.

[Michael W Richards]

Regarding the mention of a double sided knife, perhaps that more than anything else is what caused Killeen to specify that the chest wound was unique among the 39 stabs. He describes the majority of the wounds as being from something like a "pen-knife", which doesn't definitively mean a knife with 2 sharpened and useable edges. In fact most pen knives,.. which I have plenty of, modern and antique ones..as well as daggers, bayonets and specialty blades from the 1800's..., of that period would have had only 1 sharpened blade side. The Bowie, as an example, had 2..one at the sloped edge from the tip, and the main blade, but that wouldn't leave a wound that appears to have been cut on both sides of the wound.

The knife size and the double bladed feature along with a smaller knife might not rule out one man, but one would be puzzled by the fact that he had a dagger on him while he used a small, and potentially finger amputating pen knife instead to make 38 wounds. If a killer wants to kill, and the slowness of the murder, or pro isn't a relevant factor, then why not just use the larger blade and be done with it? Much less strenuous, and far more time efficient.

Cheers

[Wickerman]

The knife size and the double bladed feature along with a smaller knife might not rule out one man, but one would be puzzled by the fact that he had a dagger on him while he used a small, and potentially finger amputating pen knife instead to make 38 wounds. If a killer wants to kill, and the slowness of the murder, or pro isn't a relevant factor, then why not just use the larger blade and be done with it? Much less strenuous, and far more time efficient.

Cheers

No man armed with a dagger is going to use it once, then finish the job with a toothpick.
Neither is he going to start the job with a toothpick and finish it with one final blow from a dagger.
The different sized wounds, different depths, are as I think you are hinting at, firm indicators of two different perpetrators.
No matter what song and dance anyone comes up with, you cannot change common sense.

[Tom_Wescott]

You've missed the mark, Wick.

39 wounds = 39 killers with a knife each. Bloody John Hancock brought the big blade.

Or perhaps:

1 dagger stab and 19 stabs with a pair of scissors.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[gnote]

There have been modern forensic examiners that have reviewed the C5 postmortem reports. What about Tabram in particular?

[Michael W Richards]

No man armed with a dagger is going to use it once, then finish the job with a toothpick.
Neither is he going to start the job with a toothpick and finish it with one final blow from a dagger.
The different sized wounds, different depths, are as I think you are hinting at, firm indicators of two different perpetrators.
No matter what song and dance anyone comes up with, you cannot change common sense.

The job was finished with the dagger, not the pen knife. Which was my original point...its unlikely one man used both. If one man had both weapons, there never would have been pen knife wounds. As you say, why would he use a toothpick if he had a dagger..the simple answer, not dance, is that one man didn't have both weapons.

Geez...Jon you are not usually obtuse.

[Errata]

The job was finished with the dagger, not the pen knife. Which was my original point...its unlikely one man used both. If one man had both weapons, there never would have been pen knife wounds. As you say, why would he use a toothpick if he had a dagger..the simple answer, not dance, is that one man didn't have both weapons.

Geez...Jon you are not usually obtuse.

It's also possible that he had a hell of a time extracting the dagger once he stabbed through the breastbone. He used another knife to finish what he wanted to do, but waited until she was on the ground to get the dagger back. Probably aided by his foot on her chest.

It's a possibility.

[Wickerman]

The job was finished with the dagger, not the pen knife. Which was my original point...its unlikely one man used both. If one man had both weapons, there never would have been pen knife wounds. As you say, why would he use a toothpick if he had a dagger..the simple answer, not dance, is that one man didn't have both weapons.

Geez...Jon you are not usually obtuse.

I was agreeing with you Michael.

[Wickerman]

You've missed the mark, Wick.

39 wounds = 39 killers with a knife each. Bloody John Hancock brought the big blade.

Or perhaps:

1 dagger stab and 19 stabs with a pair of scissors.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Reading too much Agatha Christie, Tom?

[Errata]

You've missed the mark, Wick.

39 wounds = 39 killers with a knife each. Bloody John Hancock brought the big blade.

Or perhaps:

1 dagger stab and 19 stabs with a pair of scissors.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Says a man who clearly never tried to stab anything with an open pair of scissors. They'll dislocate the top of your index finger doing that. Which hurts a lot more than a dislocated shoulder or hip, much to the surprise of those prone to such things.

[Tom_Wescott]

Reading too much Agatha Christie, Tom?

You can never read too much Agatha.

As fate would have it, I'm currently reading the new Hercule Poirot novel, The Monogram Murders.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Ausgirl]

Says a man who clearly never tried to stab anything with an open pair of scissors. They'll dislocate the top of your index finger doing that. Which hurts a lot more than a dislocated shoulder or hip, much to the surprise of those prone to such things.

Note to self: Try very hard to never upset Errata.

[Michael W Richards]

I was agreeing with you Michael.

I suppose the manner in which you did threw me a bit Jon...... and Im not used to having a logical argument agreed with. Sorry bud.

I often expect spurious speculation as a reply, though not from you.

Cheers Jon