Comparing with Tabrum with non Ripper victims.

[Lewis C]

Being a poverty-class woman living in Whitechapel in the late Summer/Autumn of 1888 and indulging in casual prostitution aren't sufficient criteria to rule her in, because those criteria applied to hundreds, if not thousands of unfortunates in the East End. I tend to focus on what clearly characterises Tabram's death - i.e. that she was killed in a frenzied shower of stab wounds to her neck and chest, which is completely different from any of the other WM's, never mind just the canonical Ripper victims.

You did the same thing again here: picked one of the reasons for suspecting she's a Ripper victim, and then said that that reason isn't enough. I agree that that reason alone isn't enough. All of the reasons combined may be another matter.

[FrankO]

The remaining two stabs - just two - were in the lower abdomen,...

I've seen you claim several times that there were just two wounds to the lower abdomen, Gareth. Did I miss something in the evidence? Because if I count all the wounds delivered to the organs & neck, I arrive at 30 wounds. Plus the 3 inch wound on the lower abdomen makes 31. Of course, some of the stabs may not have hit any organs, so they may have been in, for instance, the shoulders or the legs as some newspapers have it, or they may just not have reached deep enough to wound any organs, but how are you so sure there were only 2 wounds to the lower abdomen? A genuine question, so I'd genuinely appreciate your reaction...

[Sam Flynn]

I always believed that there were only two lower abdominal wounds documented, Frank. Besides, whether it was two or three, there are 35+ in the neck, chest and upper abdomen, so it's clear that those areas were the focus of the killer's frenzied attack... if he had a "focus" at all.

Secondly, the fact that some of the wounds were deep enough to puncture some organs is inconsequential. The stabs were directed at the neck, thorax and upper abdomen, and any damage to underlying organs is almost certainly incidental. I see absolutely no reason to suppose that any wounds which didn't also puncture organs were left unrecorded.

[FrankO]

I always believed that there were only two lower abdominal wounds documented, Frank. Besides, whether it was two or three, there are 35+ in the neck, chest and upper abdomen, so it's clear that those areas were the focus of the killer's frenzied attack... if he had a "focus" at all.

Secondly, the fact that some of the wounds were deep enough to puncture some organs is inconsequential. The stabs were directed at the neck, thorax and upper abdomen, and any damage to underlying organs is almost certainly incidental. I see absolutely no reason to suppose that any wounds which didn't also puncture organs were left unrecorded.

Thanks for your reply, Gareth, although you haven’t really given the answer what I was looking for. I’d hoped you’d have pointed me to evidence on which you base that there were only 2 lower abdominal wounds and 37 wounds to the neck, chest and upper abdomen. Just so I’d have the picture of her murder right.

Maybe I’ve muddled my question by talking about the possibility that some of the wounds weren’t deep enough to hit any organs, but that was just one possibility for why 8 wounds weren’t mentioned by Killeen and aren’t accounted for in the evidence we have, as far as I can tell.

Like you, I also see absolutely no reason to suppose that any wounds were left unrecorded, but what I do see is that only 30 wounds in the upper body are accounted for in the evidence we’re left with and 1 in the lower abdomen.

I think my view is closer to yours than you might think. As I’ve said before, I agree that the attack on Tabram was a frenzied one. If she was killed by the Ripper - which I’d put at some 55% chance – then him killing some woman that night hadn’t been on his mind until it happened, in a haphazard fashion with the raising of her skirt and the small cut on her abdomen as a sort of afterthought.

It’s very clear to me that she wasn’t attacked in the way the Ripper attacked Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly, just as it’s clear to me that Stride was attacked in a somewhat different way. To me, that means that something about her murder was quite different than with Nichols and the others, or otherwise, she would have been attacked in a way that was closer to how the others were attacked. My view is that by the time Tabram was killed, the Ripper would have already had a ‘blueprint’ fantasy about what he would do to women, which he tried to act out with Nichols, etc. I think what he did to Kelly came the closest to that 'blueprint'.

Cheers

[scottnapa]

I think my view is closer to yours than you might think. As I’ve said before, I agree that the attack on Tabram was a frenzied one. If she was killed by the Ripper - which I’d put at some 55% chance – then him killing some woman that night hadn’t been on his mind until it happened, in a haphazard fashion with the raising of her skirt and the small cut on her abdomen as a sort of afterthought.
Cheers[/FONT]

killing some woman that night hadn’t been on his mind until it happened,
The idea that this attack on TABRAM unplanned is compelling, as this theory addresses one of the issues regarding TABRAM that i struggle with, as I perceive this frenzied attack is at odds with the canonical five murders.
An unpremeditated act that unfolds due to the killer’s uncontrollable urge creates a valid possibility that explains the lack of planning.
(Another question I had, why kill on the landing? Why be closer to sleepers and further from route of escape? Lack of planning answers that as well.)
The TABRAM commonalities with the five:

1. Type of victim
2. No clear motive
3. Overkill
4. Significant risk of murder in public area
5. Shocking display of bloody mutilation
6. Rage — clear hate of woman
7. Time of crime
8. Strangulation?
9. Posing of body. (postmortem)

Significantly, these commonalities are not exclusive.
Prostitution. Violence against women is a known risk of within the profession Modern profiling tells us prostitutes are disposable and accessible victims. No one will miss them, no one will care. Prostitutes are also attacked by killers who percieve them as despicable victims, who are unworthy of life. Within the wide spectrum of violent misogyny, the actions of the Ripper seem in line with killing a victim who is not worthy of life. Tabram’s death seems closer to the other category, no one would care what i do to her.
Lack of known motive. Situational. How could we know there is no motive until Scotland Yard has a suspect. Nothing about the crime scene excludes the notion that the killer knows the victim.
Overkill. Evident but very dissimilar to the Five.
Public Risk. Valid. Not unique to serial killers
Display. Valid. Could easily apply to a one time murder as to a serial killer. Nowhere near as shocking as what comes next. How much display is involved in the TABRAM murder? If a drunken soldier killed Martha, walks away, wouldn’t it look the same? Display of her body was common enough that Albert George Crow walked by without concern.
Rage. Evident and significant. Not exclusive.
Time of crime. Evident. However equally true for our hypothetical drunken soldier. .
Strangulation. Stated as fact by some on the site. But appears to be unproven. Unable to find anything from the inquest. Bruising is common and likely; as the killer would have his hand on the victims throat during the attack, whether he is the Ripper or not.
Posing Why would we consider the spreading of the legs in the lifting of the dress to be significant? It is common position for this type of victim. He could tell her to lie down, then proceed. Tabram could be sleeping rough then attacked. Why assume the posing is a postmortem act when this posing is very different. The actions of TABRAM’s killer mirrors a sexual act. Her wounds consistent with a killer assuming the role of a death rider in the missionary position, as the strikes of the weapon hit the upper body and neck; the knife penetrates and thrusts until the killer finishes. If so, the legs were spread at the beginning of the attack. And the single wound in the area below the stomach would be the postmortem act, as the killer rises up and places a period at the end of a sentence,

How should we judge the lack of Ripper common elements seen in the other murders but missing from the Tabram murder?

1. A non-typical choice of weapon(s) Indeed, why carry two knives?
2. Lack of knife skills.
3. Lack of focus in overkill; the Ripper attacks the flesh in order to abscond with the organs of life. He is fast, articulate, focused and timely.
4. Planning. Sense of task. ABlueprint, as you call it, is evident in the “Five”.
5. Postmortem curiousity rather than postmortem brutality. The Ripper plan evolves into the unfathomable and grotesque destruction of Mary Kelly.

Two knives One killer? Two knives suggests the possibility of two men with knives in attendance at the scene. Perhaps one killer uses the bayonet as the other drops an elbow on Martha’s neck, then stabs with the pen knife. Is there anything ritualistic and or symbolic about the use of a weapon of war on a random victim?
An alternative — the smaller knife belong to Martha. The lone killer took it from her and put it to use. The two knives are quite a mystery.
Knife skills. Where is the slaughterhouse skill set? The speed and efficient use of the blade is a skill developed by repetition. I can’t accept the Ripper would forget his learned skills on the 7th of August a and remember them on the 31st of August. The killer transitions from clumsy to smooth.
Non-articulate overkill JtRisnot bothered by blood or feces. Disemboweling is never common. He harvests organs, so different from repetitive stabbing.
Planning Why do we imagine we can guess the first kill? If the JtR worked as a slaughterhouse man, would this psychopath, imagine he is killing the women who have betrayed and belittled him previously as he slits the throats of these beasts? Wouldn’t that work just fine as role of development in the germination of the Ripper’s violent desire to kill?
Postmortem curiosity. Interest in the body after death evolves dramatically in the coming days and months. Collects trophies! Cannibalism? Dismemberment!

This assumption that TABRAM is an early Ripper murder victim whose death is followed by more grotesque killings can not be proven.
If one chooses to frame the events of 7th August 1888 as a “practice run” for a serial killer, how do we prove TABRAM is a practice murder exclusive to JtR when this crime can just as easily be imagined as a practice run of the Thames torso murderer?

[Lewis C]

killing some woman that night hadn’t been on his mind until it happened,
The idea that this attack on TABRAM unplanned is compelling, as this theory addresses one of the issues regarding TABRAM that i struggle with, as I perceive this frenzied attack is at odds with the canonical five murders.
An unpremeditated act that unfolds due to the killer’s uncontrollable urge creates a valid possibility that explains the lack of planning.
(Another question I had, why kill on the landing? Why be closer to sleepers and further from route of escape? Lack of planning answers that as well.)
The TABRAM commonalities with the five:

1. Type of victim
2. No clear motive
3. Overkill
4. Significant risk of murder in public area
5. Shocking display of bloody mutilation
6. Rage — clear hate of woman
7. Time of crime
8. Strangulation?
9. Posing of body. (postmortem)

Significantly, these commonalities are not exclusive.
Prostitution. Violence against women is a known risk of within the profession Modern profiling tells us prostitutes are disposable and accessible victims. No one will miss them, no one will care. Prostitutes are also attacked by killers who percieve them as despicable victims, who are unworthy of life. Within the wide spectrum of violent misogyny, the actions of the Ripper seem in line with killing a victim who is not worthy of life. Tabram’s death seems closer to the other category, no one would care what i do to her.
Lack of known motive. Situational. How could we know there is no motive until Scotland Yard has a suspect. Nothing about the crime scene excludes the notion that the killer knows the victim.
Overkill. Evident but very dissimilar to the Five.
Public Risk. Valid. Not unique to serial killers
Display. Valid. Could easily apply to a one time murder as to a serial killer. Nowhere near as shocking as what comes next. How much display is involved in the TABRAM murder? If a drunken soldier killed Martha, walks away, wouldn’t it look the same? Display of her body was common enough that Albert George Crow walked by without concern.
Rage. Evident and significant. Not exclusive.
Time of crime. Evident. However equally true for our hypothetical drunken soldier. .
Strangulation. Stated as fact by some on the site. But appears to be unproven. Unable to find anything from the inquest. Bruising is common and likely; as the killer would have his hand on the victims throat during the attack, whether he is the Ripper or not.
Posing Why would we consider the spreading of the legs in the lifting of the dress to be significant? It is common position for this type of victim. He could tell her to lie down, then proceed. Tabram could be sleeping rough then attacked. Why assume the posing is a postmortem act when this posing is very different. The actions of TABRAM’s killer mirrors a sexual act. Her wounds consistent with a killer assuming the role of a death rider in the missionary position, as the strikes of the weapon hit the upper body and neck; the knife penetrates and thrusts until the killer finishes. If so, the legs were spread at the beginning of the attack. And the single wound in the area below the stomach would be the postmortem act, as the killer rises up and places a period at the end of a sentence,

How should we judge the lack of Ripper common elements seen in the other murders but missing from the Tabram murder?

1. A non-typical choice of weapon(s) Indeed, why carry two knives?
2. Lack of knife skills.
3. Lack of focus in overkill; the Ripper attacks the flesh in order to abscond with the organs of life. He is fast, articulate, focused and timely.
4. Planning. Sense of task. ABlueprint, as you call it, is evident in the “Five”.
5. Postmortem curiousity rather than postmortem brutality. The Ripper plan evolves into the unfathomable and grotesque destruction of Mary Kelly.

Two knives One killer? Two knives suggests the possibility of two men with knives in attendance at the scene. Perhaps one killer uses the bayonet as the other drops an elbow on Martha’s neck, then stabs with the pen knife. Is there anything ritualistic and or symbolic about the use of a weapon of war on a random victim?
An alternative — the smaller knife belong to Martha. The lone killer took it from her and put it to use. The two knives are quite a mystery.
Knife skills. Where is the slaughterhouse skill set? The speed and efficient use of the blade is a skill developed by repetition. I can’t accept the Ripper would forget his learned skills on the 7th of August a and remember them on the 31st of August. The killer transitions from clumsy to smooth.
Non-articulate overkill JtRisnot bothered by blood or feces. Disemboweling is never common. He harvests organs, so different from repetitive stabbing.
Planning Why do we imagine we can guess the first kill? If the JtR worked as a slaughterhouse man, would this psychopath, imagine he is killing the women who have betrayed and belittled him previously as he slits the throats of these beasts? Wouldn’t that work just fine as role of development in the germination of the Ripper’s violent desire to kill?
Postmortem curiosity. Interest in the body after death evolves dramatically in the coming days and months. Collects trophies! Cannibalism? Dismemberment!

This assumption that TABRAM is an early Ripper murder victim whose death is followed by more grotesque killings can not be proven.
If one chooses to frame the events of 7th August 1888 as a “practice run” for a serial killer, how do we prove TABRAM is a practice murder exclusive to JtR when this crime can just as easily be imagined as a practice run of the Thames torso murderer?

(bolding of the list added)

Hi Scott,

I would add 2 more to the list that I bolded:

10. Killed with a knife (or knives).
11. Location - If you put it with the C5 murders, Tabram's is the most centrally located of the 6 murders.

[scottnapa]

(bolding of the list added)

Hi Scott,

I would add 2 more to the list that I bolded:

10. Killed with a knife (or knives).
11. Location - If you put it with the C5 murders, Tabram's is the most centrally located of the 6 murders.

Thanks for looking it over. Yes location, absolutely true. Knife(s) a knife was a normal carry. If you lived in a flop house, you carried your possessions with you. That is another commonality, all victims were transients. Vulnerability is a theme. The Ripper had a job, this income allowed for a private space, a locked room for his trophies and trinkets.

[FrankO]

Time of crime. Evident. However equally true for our hypothetical drunken soldier. .

I don't agree here, Scott. Three weeks after Tabram followed Nichols and the rest of the series that wasn't particularly thought to have been committed by a hypothetical drunken soldier. Had there been more murders by this hypothetical drunken soldier shortly before and/or after Tabram, then you'd have a point.

[Lewis C]

Thanks for looking it over. Yes location, absolutely true. Knife(s) a knife was a normal carry. If you lived in a flop house, you carried your possessions with you. That is another commonality, all victims were transients. Vulnerability is a theme. The Ripper had a job, this income allowed for a private space, a locked room for his trophies and trinkets.

You're welcome.

Knives may have been a normal carry, but many murder victims were killed in other ways besides with knives.

[scottnapa]

I don't agree here, Scott. Three weeks after Tabram followed Nichols and the rest of the series that wasn't particularly thought to have been committed by a hypothetical drunken soldier. Had there been more murders by this hypothetical drunken soldier shortly before and/or after Tabram, then you'd have a point.

Thanks for your comment Frank.
Time of crime is evident (comma but) how significant of an indicator is a violent crime committed at night? It has limited value because crime at night doesn’t exclude any other killer.

My hypothetical drunken soldier is an example of anyone could do this and NOT a suspect.
I could have written it better the first time, so thanks for making a point that allows me to clarify.
I find the entire Pearly Poll business a parade of headaches.
i was very pleased to read Tom Weston’s POV on this situation
I am not pushing any soldier as the killer. I don’t have a dead horse in this race.
I am very interested in why everyone thinks the way they do. So I am very much appreciate your sharing your theory of this event I see some connection between Tabram and the C5 but I see a dotted line not a straight line. Your percentage of 55%.is very consistent with many posters on the site who see Tabram as a probable victim. I think she is a possible victim.

[FrankO]

Thanks for your comment Frank.
Time of crime is evident (comma but) how significant of an indicator is a violent crime committed at night? It has limited value because crime at night doesn’t exclude any other killer.

My hypothetical drunken soldier is an example of anyone could do this and NOT a suspect.
I could have written it better the first time, so thanks for making a point that allows me to clarify.
I find the entire Pearly Poll business a parade of headaches.
i was very pleased to read Tom Weston’s POV on this situation
I am not pushing any soldier as the killer. I don’t have a dead horse in this race.
I am very interested in why everyone thinks the way they do. So I am very much appreciate your sharing your theory of this event I see some connection between Tabram and the C5 but I see a dotted line not a straight line. Your percentage of 55%.is very consistent with many posters on the site who see Tabram as a probable victim. I think she is a possible victim.

I agree that the connection between Tabram and Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly is a dotted line, Scott, and not a straight one. For me, mainly the cut to her lower abdomen and the timing of her murder form those dots.